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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 09:42 am
What do you think of those who loot hospitals?
IMO that is what should have brought a hue and cry not relics of yesteryear. Somehow I can't get excited over pottery. The concern should be over the living.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:17 am
I appreciate your point of view and to be honest, i'm split on the subject. I don't like thinking of historic treasures in terms of lives - would it be worth sacrificing a life for one relic? ten relics? a thousand?

The reality doesn't force us to answer these questions though. Instead, between hospitals and museums, the oil fields were chosen...
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:30 am
April 19, 2003
The Rape of History
The War on Civilization

by GARY LEUPP

"This is what the Americans wanted. They wanted Iraq to lose its history."

Donny George, Director for Research, Iraqi Ministry of Antiquities (quoted by Associated Press, April 16)

It doesn't speak well of me, but I confess I did not cry looking at the photos of the kids with amputated limbs, the little boy with half his head blown off, the cities in flames. I grew up during the Vietnam War, and I'm used to seeing such atrocities in the print media. These results of U.S. imperialism make me angry, of course, and more determined than ever to resist, but they don't evoke tears anymore. I'm too old, hardened and tired for that.

But the Museum. The Library. You kill these things and you kill what I do, what I'm all about. I'm an historian. I sit in archives in Japan in normal times and handle seventeenth century manuscripts, deciphering elegant official-style handwriting in cursive Chinese characters on durable mulberry paper. Maybe there is value in that sort of investigation. Or maybe it should all go up in flames, the texts and me and everything that makes sense to me.

My tears of rage are for the smashed cuneiform tablets, the Sumerian pottery, the priceless Qurans, and for the Iraqi people whose extraordinary cultural heritage has been viciously assaulted in these last few days. How many Americans tuning into CNN and Fox realize the magnitude of this outrage?

Rumsfeld smirks in response to reporters' inquiries, opining that "riots" happen in all societies. But there is a difference between soccer hooliganism, righteous anti-racist uprisings, and cultural rape and murder. The last few days have seen crimes exceeding the Taliban pulverization of the Buddhas of Bamiyan. The better analogy would be the destruction (by a Christian mob) of the Library in Alexandria in 415, or again by Arab invaders in 686. Civilization itself is under attack, and the assailants, whom the Iraqis properly compare to the Mongol invaders of the thirteenth century, wave the red-white-and-blue (until enraged crowds force them to temporarily pocket that bloody, globally hated emblem).

I don't know the nationality of the above-quoted Donny George. Obviously he's not Iraqi. I imagine he's a decent professional, expressing an informed opinion when he says, "This is what the Americans wanted." The word on the street is that U.S. commanders, irked by the lack of the expected exuberant manifestations of appreciation from the "liberated" population, a shell-shocked population inclined to stony silence, and unwilling to go to the trouble of orchestrating more media events like the toppling of the 20 foot statue of Saddam in Baghdad's main square (in which, Paula Zahn told us, U.S. forces "helped" Iraqis achieve that project, even though the square was emptied of Iraqis at the time), encouraged those so inclined to get out in the streets and act happy. And what makes thugs happier than looting and burning? Saddam had emptied the prisons some time back, and there were lots of thugs available to exult and smile and help Iraq lose its history.

Thugs don't care about history. Knowing that the worst among them are in charge of this country, and smirking and grinning steering their troops down the road to Damascus (where there are more museums and libraries, sometimes with children innocently studying in them, like children should), I truly grieve.

Gary Leupp is an an associate professor, Department of History, Tufts University and coordinator, Asian Studies Program.

He can be reached at: [email protected]
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:30 am
dafdaf
The oil fields are the life blood of Iraq. Without their oil what does Iraq have to support it's people. Yes, protecting the oil fields was of prime importance to the Iraqi people. As for hospitals who could have foreseen that looting? There is absolutely no excuse or justification for that.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:36 am
Au -- In my view not only is the looting inexcusable, the lack of preparation (or perhaps deliberate policy) which caused the US to let it happen is no less inexcusable. It creates a false dichotomy to set human lives against human history. Harm to both could and should have been avoided.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:52 am
au1929 wrote:
dafdaf
The oil fields are the life blood of Iraq. Without their oil what does Iraq have to support it's people. Yes, protecting the oil fields was of prime importance to the Iraqi people. As for hospitals who could have foreseen that looting? There is absolutely no excuse or justification for that.


Someone trained and experienced in post-war civiliasations could have predicted that. Rumsfield is probably top 20 most powerful men in the world. I think he has a duty to properly plan his actions.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:55 am
What pained me the most was the press conferences that came afterwards. I wish I had written down exact quotes, but one that stuck with me went something like this:
"We gave them freedom. This is what free people do".

I think it was rumsfield that said it. If someone could dig up the exact quote I'd be very grateful.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 10:59 am
Rumsfeld in my opinion is a senile old man.
Someone should have put a muzzle on him quite a while ago.
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 11:03 am
One very, very last thing before i go.

There are roughly 200,000,000 tax payers in the US. The cost of the war for the US was estimated (by Bush if I recall) to be $60,000,000,000. In other words, approve of the war or not, you're paying $300 each for it.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 11:10 am
Rumsfeld also likend the riots in Bagdad to Watts and Detroit of the 60's/70/s but i am sure he's not implying a racial slur. DOH!
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dafdaf
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 11:12 am
Bush once argued that the war on Afganistan wasn't a war on Islam. He immediately followed it with:
"This is a crusade against terrorism".

*Creating a forum for "Classic Bush-men Quotes" as we speak Smile*



http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6733
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 11:15 am
dafdaf, Everbody knows by now that GWBush is not the most skilled at the English language. He wouldn't know when he offends anybody unless his speech is prewritten. c.i.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 01:59 pm
Culled from a morning's reading:

Quote:
But Massar Farouq, a telecommunications engineer from the oil ministry, said she did not understand why US troops prevented her from returning to work.
"All the employees are here, but as you can see, US forces are preventing us from entering the building," she said.
As many as 100 oil-industry employees loitered around the ministry complex, as soldiers stood guard behind barbed wire barriers.
Unlike other state buildings, the Ministry of Oil escaped the bombing unscathed, and has been heavily guarded by American troops since invasion forces entered the capital.
http://english.aljazeera.net/topics/article.asp?cu_no=1&item_no=2876&version=1&template_id=263&parent_id=258


Quote:
However, he lamented the whole US approach to dealing with post-war Iraq. "We have a lot of experience with coups d'etat and this one is the worst..."
http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1048313884169


Quote:
Looting of the museum could mean 'irreparable loss of cultural treasures of enormous importance to all humanity', the document concluded. But the US army still failed to post soldiers outside the museum, and it was ransacked, with more than 270,000 artefacts taken.
General Jay Garner, the head of ORHA, is said to be 'livid'. 'We asked for just a few soldiers at each building or, if they feared snipers, then just one or two tanks,' said one ORHA official. 'The tanks were doing nothing once they got inside the city, yet the generals refused to deploy them, and look what happened.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940082,00.html


Quote:
Donald Rumsfeld, possibly the greatest philistine since Genghis Khan's grandson, who burned Baghdad in the thirteenth century, dismissed the carnage as if destroying the audit trail of civilisation mattered less than ripping out Saddam's 24-carat shower-fittings. Such insouciance does not simply suggest a cultural nihilist with the curatorial instincts of Homer Simpson. It implies the wish, identified by Sebald, to deny the truth. Lying is contagious. Many supporters of the war also choose to minimise the disaster because they wanted cheering Iraqis, not anarchic vandals whose actions provide a dangerous augury. Reality does not suit the hawkish case.... A culture is in ruins. A virtuous war has proved a masterclass in man's inhumanity to man. The way forward lies not in myths of victory but in banishing self-delusion.
It is time, on Resurrection Day, for our pious political leaders to face the devastation this conflict has wrought. For, if they will not, there may be no safer tomorrow. http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940139,00.html


Quote:
Not one illegal warhead. Not one drum of chemicals. Not one incriminating document. Not one shred of evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction in more than a month of war and occupation
http://argument.independent.co.uk/leading_articles/story.jsp?story=398837


Quote:
Anthrax, chemicals and nerve gas: who is lying?
Growing evidence of deception by Washington
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=398705


Quote:
An ascendant mafia now rules the United States... They empty noble words - liberation, freedom and democracy - of their true meaning. The unspoken truth is that behind the bloody conquest of Iraq is the conquest of us all: of our minds, our humanity and our self-respect at the very least. If we say and do nothing, victory over us is assured.
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=398722
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 02:20 pm
I'm very surprised anyone would waste their time and the time of participants quoting form dubious sources such as Al Jazeera, and the Uganda world report to support a hate filled entrenched leftist point of view----it truly is a joke.
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 02:39 pm
In fact, there is not even one American source among these quoted by Tartarin.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 02:40 pm
percption


The Financial Times, The Guardian and The Independent will truely be honoured that you call them dubious sources. (I might admit that the FT is as a conservative media not my ultimate favourite paper, but 'dubious'?)
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 02:42 pm
steissd

And you wonder?
(Seems, the ally's media are not so biased?)
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steissd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 02:47 pm
Ally is geographically located too close to the hostile France...
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 03:10 pm
Surely it a matter of great concern, that none of the quoted sources are American.
The truth is out there (it is authenticated) but it is not being published in the American media.

Is this a satisfactory state of affairs?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Apr, 2003 03:11 pm
Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies but as liberators.

That's not George W. Bush but Lt.-Gen. Stanley Maude addressing Iraqis after the British occupation of Baghdad in 1917. With the Ottoman empire's surrender a year later, the British proclaimed the three Mesopotamian provinces of Baghdad, Basra and Mosul as Iraq.

Running into resistance, they set aside Maude's assurances, reached for gas shells and opted for the "wholesale slaughter" of Arab tribes, in the phrase of another British officer.
They quelled the uprising, at the cost of 10,000 Iraqi and 450 British dead, and an expenditure of the then-staggering sum of £40 million.
They also installed their own man, Amir Faisal. The son of the sheriff of Mecca and leader of the Arab Revolt, he was imported from his European exile
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