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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 04:59 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Scrat, here is the information you asked for, no I will not read it to you ..... just list the points you have direct knowledge of and hold in contention...... choose 'The 2000 Presidential Election'

http://www.usccr.gov/

Gelis - I can always count on you for a good laugh. Berry and company's paranoid fantasies of anti-minority conspiracies in no way speak to the issue you raised and I disputed. Laughing
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 05:31 pm
Scrat wrote:
Berry and company's paranoid fantasies of anti-minority conspiracies


See what you get when you contend Scrat's "facts"?

Here's a link to Greg Palast's exhaustive investigation of the Florida voting fraud perpetrated on African-Americans by Katherine Harris' office:

Winning the Election the Republican Way

Scrat won't read it, though. It conflicts with his "facts'.

Here's an excerpt:

Quote:


Scrat is simply unable to see that he assigns that which agrees with his POV as "factual", and that which does not as "paranoid fantasies".

Scrat goes further and describes those who disagree as being "out of touch with reality", among other things.

Let us be reminded, readers, that ad hominem invective directed at the source or the poster is always the sign of a losing argument.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:00 pm
Actually, in most states, a convicted felon's full civil rights, including gun ownership, freedom of association, and voting priveileges may, upon satisfactory completion of sentence and fulfillment of conditions of release be restored by order of the court which imposed the felony conviction. Additionally, Voter Lists are public record, and any citizen desirous of voting should be expected to be familiar with one's own status. Election Day is not the time to discover there is an anomally. Legal remedy for error in qualification is readily available. Finally, one intending to vote should make one's self familiar with both the issues and mechanics of the vote. Simply showing up at the polling place on election day is not enough. The Florida Debacle was brought about by a failure of the agrieved party to properly prepare a particularly solicited constituency. The way to ensure the success and validity of the electoral system, the electoral system must be understood and used far more widely than has become customary. Regardless which side "Won" in what fashion in 2000, the result hinged on what amounted to less than half of less than half (yeah, redundancy intended) of the eligible voter pool in terms of numbers of popular votes cast. None of which has anything to do with the relationships affectingThe US, UN, or Iraq. :wink:
0 Replies
 
jackie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:34 pm
timberlandko,

with all due respect, I would like to comment a bit furthur on the subject we are beating like a dead horse.

All poor democrats who did not get to vote were somehow responsible for making themselves 'eligible' by being "up to snuff" on all the rules of law concerning anyone who has been convicted. Yet......
(and I have military friends who TOLD me personally, so I did not have to find a link) the MILITARY not only were WOOED to vote REPUBLICAN, but were lectured to up to the point of 'hounding' about their DUTY to get out their vote. Not only THAT, but the forms and the pencil were almost put in their face. And some pressure was on, (I heard) even after a lot of us had CAST our vote, and it was so close.

Please remember, I respect all of your opinions, and I have no more to say on this subject.

Thank you for your reciprocation.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 07:35 pm
Quote:
Let us be reminded, readers, that ad hominem invective directed at the source or the poster is always the sign of a losing argument.


Then I would have to declare scrat the winner, PDid, thanks for pointing that out!
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:01 pm
http://www.msnbc.com/news/931304.asp?0cm=c10
I TOLD YOU SO!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:02 pm
Winner of what? c.i.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:10 pm
Did you read anything past the headline, MaxsD? this has already been addressed on a separate thread.

from your link:

Quote:
U.S. officials said the discoveries did not constitute final proof that Saddam had rebuilt his banned weapons program, as administration officials alleged in justifying the invasion of Iraq. But they said the materials were the best evidence so far that the Iraqi government could have done so


and

Quote:
Richard Butler, the United Nations' former chief weapons inspector, told MSNBC TV's Lester Holt that he was "absolutely unsurprised" by the report. "We have known of [Saddam's previous plans] for a decade," he said.
Butler said that the discovery of components of a uranium enrichment system suggested that Iraq was far from production of actual weapons.


nothing new at that link.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:13 pm
Components of WMD Found in Iraq

in case you're wondering what pdiddie thought.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:20 pm
Evil or Very Mad Shame, shame, SHAME Evil or Very Mad , on you max, for mocking the dead Americans, British, and Iraqis in your misguided quest for righteousness.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 08:36 pm
jackie, just to raise one more cloud of flies from the carcass of that deaqd horse ... the Military's execution of their own voter drive was far more effective than was the execution of Florida's Democratic Party's voter drive. The military defined the mission, provided the troops the training and materials to accomplish the mission, and got the expected results. In Florida, The Dems defined the mission allright, but failed to devote sufficient resources to ensure its accomplishment. With a bit of forethought and organization, it could have been assured the "Potential" voters were able to fully exercize their right to vote, and additionally be inclined to vote Democratic. The folks who found themselve "Disqualified" due to bureaucratic error were unfortunate; those responsible for "turning out the vote" were practically criminally negligent to have failed to do more than take names, solicit donations, and provide rides to the polls. Political Action includes not just voter advocacy, but voter education.


As to the centrifuge mentioned elsewhere ... well, it's one more piece of the puzzle, and but one of more to be expected. Tens of thousands of gasmasks and antidote kits, warheads which, while empty, were specifically suited to the dispensing of chem/bio agents, literally container-trailers-full of documents, droptanks modified to dispense aerosols, missle production capability of prohibited nature, fraudulent declarations, obstruction and defiance of the Inspections Protocols, and whatever else one cares to cite ... Saddam had stuff to hide and was pretty good at hiding it. Among other troubling questions: Just where is the accounting for the "Known, previously cataloged but now unaccounted for proscribed assets and capabilities" ... that hasn't been found either. I rather suspect more of this iceberg will surface in the not so distant future, and that while Bush The Younger may not be fully vindicated in the eyes of some, and that criticism on this front will wane in the face of developments. There remains the problem of bringing order to Iraq, but despite incidents, Iraq is at least as peaceful, if not moreso, than lots of other spots around the world at the moment, and, for the moment, at least, relatively unplagued bu goonsquads with the sole function of preying on the populace ... things could be worse, and in Iraq, recently have been worse.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:09 pm
I see that the fog of war (or is it smoke from the unfortunate fire?) has not yet cleared from the Big Bird's brain...

timberlandko wrote:
With a bit of forethought and organization, it could have been assured the "Potential" voters were able to fully exercize their right to vote, and additionally be inclined to vote Democratic. The folks who found themselve "Disqualified" due to bureaucratic error were unfortunate; those responsible for "turning out the vote" were practically criminally negligent to have failed to do more than take names, solicit donations, and provide rides to the polls.


African-Americans purposely and maliciously purged from the rolls by the FL Secretary of State is "unfortunate"? "Bureaucratic error"?

No, it is not. Shame on you; go back and read my link to Gregory Palast's investigation, sir.

How would you know if you had been purged from the roll until you got ready to vote? I have served as an election judge, and while it may be different in Wisconsin than it is in Texas, the voter registration lists are NOT for public consumption until shortly before the election (beginning with early voting). No one is notified if the computer kicks their name because someone similarly named is a felon.

And I must say that I have not missed your rambling discourses on WMDs being 'just around the corner', to paraphrase a certain Republican President.

Castor beans, barrels of documents and centrifuges are NOT the evidence vindicating Bush's entreaties to disarm Iraq right away.

I'm so glad your son is safe, timber. Tell me this:

Could you actually look a grieving military family in the eye and tell them their son or daughter died for 300 sacks of castor beans?

Bush deceived you. When will you be able to admit it?

And one last thing: how deceived do you think those soldiers feel knowing Bush is slashing their veterans' benefits?
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:26 pm
PDiddie wrote:
Scrat wrote:
Berry and company's paranoid fantasies of anti-minority conspiracies


See what you get when you contend Scrat's "facts"?

Here's a link to Greg Palast's exhaustive investigation of the Florida voting fraud perpetrated on African-Americans by Katherine Harris' office:

Winning the Election the Republican Way

Scrat won't read it, though. It conflicts with his "facts'.

Here's an excerpt:

Quote:


Scrat is simply unable to see that he assigns that which agrees with his POV as "factual", and that which does not as "paranoid fantasies".

Scrat goes further and describes those who disagree as being "out of touch with reality", among other things.

Let us be reminded, readers, that ad hominem invective directed at the source or the poster is always the sign of a losing argument.

PD - Compare Palast's coverage on the story to this:
Botched Name Purge Denied Some the Right to Vote

Interesting how what he makes sound so sinister they make sound like a serious screw up...

Quote:
...Clearly, however, one of the major impediments to black voting was the purge of the voter rolls. Florida has one of the nation's strictest laws governing restoration of felons' voting rights. Thirty-one percent of the state's black men are barred from voting because of prior felonies.

The voter purge was mandated after the 1997 Miami mayoral race was overturned because votes were cast by felons and non-residents. Legislators ordered everyone off the voting rolls who did not belong. In the end, that proved to be tens of thousands of "probable felons." The purge of the voter rolls was previously described by several Florida newspapers and the Nation magazine.

The state mandated the hiring of an outside vendor for $4 million to compile a list of voters who had committed felonies in other states. Database Technologies (now ChoicePoint Inc.), creator of an Internet service widely used by law enforcement agencies for investigative purposes, was chosen to sort through state and national databases to identify felons.

From the beginning, Database Technologies raised serious concerns that non-felons could be misidentified. Florida does not regularly record Social Security numbers in its records, so its felons were identified by name and date of birth, including close but not exact matches.

That's how the state intended the plan to work.

"Obviously, we want to capture more names that possibly aren't matches and let the [county elections] supervisors make a final determination rather than exclude certain matches altogether," said Emmett "Bucky" Mitchell, who headed the state purge effort, in a March 1999 e-mail to Database Technologies product manager Marlene Thorogood, who had warned him of possible mistakes.

In an interview, Clay Roberts, director of the state's division of elections, confirmed the policy. "The decision was made to do the match in such a way as not to be terribly strict on the name."

In-house concerns persisted. "Let's remember there is a liability issue in our erroneously identifying individuals as felons or deceased," said George A. Bruder Jr., a company senior vice president, in a May 26, 2000, e-mail to Thorogood. "We need to be very careful in who we label as what. If we are unsure the default should be to NOT label them as anything."

The company admits it made some mistakes. One list sent to Florida officials inaccurately contained 8,000 people who had committed misdemeanors -- not felonies -- in Texas.

People wrongly tagged as felons because of the loose matching policy included judges and the father of a county election supervisor. Also on the list were at least 2,000 felons who moved to Florida from states that automatically restore voting rights.

It was left to local election supervisors to determine whether residents of their counties were accurately listed as felons. With little guidance from the state, county supervisors devised their own rules.

Many counties sent certified letters notifying residents that the Florida Department of Law Enforcement had listed them as felons. People who did not respond were removed from voting rolls -- a practice criticized by the civil rights groups that filed the lawsuit.

In places like Escambia County, voters on the list were required to prove to election officials that they were not felons. In Lake County, by contrast, Supervisor Emogene Stegall decided the list of "probable felons" sent by the state was so flawed that she did not use it.

"They're not sending us what the statute requires them to do, so I feel we're not bound to process those," Stegall said. "They're not sure. There are so many people who have the same name, same date of birth."

The list did catch many felons who had voted illegally in previous elections. One was Jeffrey Key of Tampa, who served more than three years on a 1989 armed robbery charge and resumed voting in 1992 without applying to have his rights restored. In 2000, he was turned away from the polls....

But I think you were trying to prove something? Perhaps you think you have?

One set of numbers I bet you haven't looked for or considered... how many felons weren't on the list who belonged there, as compared to how many innocent people were who didn't? How many voted who should not have? Nobody seems too interested in that number. Why is that?

There are a lot of "if"s between where you are and where you want to be. Then maybe we'll look at some of the "interesting" things Democrats did around the country that November. (Like in Arkansas where they opened the courthouse for voting on Sunday and bused blacks in to vote when no one else was allowed to do so, when the voting office was supposed to be closed by law.)
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:32 pm
And then Tammy Faye Harris went on to Congress... Hmm.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:33 pm
It's just a bunch of payback!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:44 pm
What I don't understand is the fact that we always receive sample ballots in the mail before every election. If a person receives sample ballots every year, but all of a sudden it stops, it would seem curiousity to take over, and questions asked. My wife and I always take our sample ballots to the voting booth. We don't have to spend a half hour in the voting booth to vote. c.i.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 09:52 pm
timber

Truly nice to have you back. You weren't, I trust, assuming we lefties were getting all lovey over the last couple of months.

PD's point is a good one...it wasn't simply a matter of organization (though it has been the left's failing for a while now), it was a matter of purposeful manipulation to exclude.

And your comparison with what happened with the military isn't a good one either, they being something of a captive audience rather in the manner of kids in a classroom. That's not comparable to the broad citizenry.
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 10:09 pm
Very interesting on PBS tonight. Senators Biden and Hegel, just back from Iraq (and Jordan) were openly critical of the WH and Iraq. Each said there was no planning for post-war Iraq, and that things there are a mess. Hegel made a point of saying that we could not do this alone - that he felt NATO, the U.N., and some other countries should be asked for help. Biden said he asked Lord Robertson - head of NATO - why they hadn't stepped in. Robertson told him that nobody had asked. And they also said (as did the British in an interview there) that what is happening is not random. That all the elements of planned attack are there. We are not wanted.

So, is it possible that among all the miscalculations from the beginning - we underestimated how the Iraqis actually felt and feel about some things? The present actions are not motivated just by fear of Saddam.

So far, this is nether a victorious war nor a popular rebuilding. And, so far as the WMD - it wasn't just the fact of them. That hadn't been news for 12 years. What Bush and co stressed was the immediacy of the threat to the U.S. His preemptive war has preempted nothing.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 10:12 pm
I'm so glad you brought up Clay Roberts, ChoicePoint DBT and the Texas felon list, Scrat...

The following is from Palast's The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, pages 47-50:

Quote:
Our BBC Newsnight cameras followed me up to the 18th floor of the Florida Capitol Building in Tallahassee for my meeting with Clayton Roberts, the squat, bull-necked director of Florida's Division of Elections.

Roberts, who works directly under Secretary of State Katherine Harris, had agreed to chat with me on film. We sat on the reception sofa outside his office. His eyes began to shift, then narrowed as he read the heading of the paper on the sofa next to me: "CONFIDENTIAL."

He certainly knew what I had when I picked up the paper and asked him if the state had checked whether DBT (the ChoicePoint company) had verified the accuracy of a single name on the purge list before they paid the company millions.

"No I didn't ask DBT...," Roberts sputtered, falling over a few half-started sentences--then ripped off his lapel microphone, jumped up, charged over the camera wires and slammed his office door on me and the camera crew...

What was so terrifying to this Republican honcho? The "CONFIDENTIAL" page (figure 1.3, page 50), obviously not meant to see the light of day, said that DBT would be paid $2.3 million for their lists and manual verification using telephone calls and statistical sampling. No wonder Roberts diid a runner. He and Harris had testified to the US Civil Rights Commission--under oath--that verification of the voter purge list was left completely up to the county elections supervisors, not to the state or the contractor, ChoicePoint DBT.

It was the requirement to verify the accuracy of the purge list that justified ChoicePoint's selection for the job as well as their astonishingly high fee. Expensive though that is to repeat thousands of times, it is necessary when civil rights are at stake. Yet DBT seemed to have found a way to cut the cost of the procedure: not doing it. There is no record of DBT having made extensive verification calls. It is difficult for DBT to squirm out of this one. If they had conducted manual verification as contracted, you'd think they would have noticed that every single record on the Texas felon list was wrong.


No link; books aren't on the Web.

(But you can go to Palast's website and purchase a copy... :wink: )

Whatever that other little (unsubstantiated, at least by you) conspiracy is that you cite is just smokescreen, again...
0 Replies
 
mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2003 10:30 pm
Scrat - have you got something to back up that Arkansas story? A newpaper item? A magazine reference? Just your opinion won't do. See, one of the big differences between what you write and what, say PD writes, is that PD and others give back-up for whatever facts they're stating. Otherwise they say "I think." Of course, maybe you don't know who Greg Palast is?

But that story about Arkansas is a little hard to swallow, unless you've got some kind of affrmation of it.
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