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The US, UN & Iraq III

Forums: Politics, Iraq, Us, Un
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 09:35 am
I put people who say we live in the "greatest nation on earth" with those who say "I'm the greatest person on earth" because they both evince the same kind of weakness.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 09:47 am
Is that cat hovering in mid air - inquiring minds want to know!
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 09:51 am
This government is truly
Quote:
evil incarnate.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 09:54 am
That Cat decided from kittenhood that her roost would be the blue bowl on the dining room table, Bill, and even though she's outgrown it, she still settles in there. In order to fit (sort of) she picturesquely arranges her darker tail in a cascade over her back. (The DR table sits next to big ol' barn doors with double windows looking out onto the live oak and suspended bird feeders. Maybe that's why she likes to hang out there...)
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 10:01 am
Smile Looks like "That Cat" is suspended in mid air on a flying blue bowl from the magi!
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 10:09 am
We are not saying the USA cannot do good. We are concerned to keep it from becoming that way. We are concerned that the Bush administration is the worst possible leadership for the times. We live here and love our homes as much as you do.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 10:10 am
I would say more edgablythe, we want it done right!
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 10:45 am
McGentrix wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
"Casualties of war are not murder."

They sure are, McG. And particularly so when it's not a legitimate war but an invasion of a sovereign nation.


No, they are not. Murder is an llegal act commited with malice. War produces casualties. Call it what you will, but war does not equal murder. Get over it.


they are dead nevertheless, shifting focus from those who actually did the killing and blaming someone else is nothing but an apologist's way of saying that they bear no responsibility. that is shameful.

the logical extension of your argument could easy be twisted upon itself and have osama bin laden say that the US is responsible for the deaths incurred on 9/11 because the al queada never would have committed its acts if the US leadership had acted differently leading up to 9/11.

al queada could have said that the 3,000 dead were merely "casualties of war, " not murder....it depends on one's perspective, and yours is not the only legitimate point of view here

it is detestable to mis-use the english language to gain political advantage by calling deaths in war merely casualties of war or collateral damage because it does not matter what the motives are, especially if the deaths are avoidable, the people are still dead.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:09 am
Oh cry me a freakin' river.

Where are all of your protestations about the killing of civilians in the Congo? Or Liberia? Where are your complaints about the atrocity's going on in Serbia? Where are the tears for the murdered people in Israel? Where are the screams of horror about the millions dying of AIDS? Where are your sensitivities to the millions of children starving around the world while their govts stockpile the aid?

All you have is the endless crying of what the US Government did as though Bush was the root of all evil. Please. So many of the posts anymore are just so ridiculous that I can't believe adults write them.

/rant
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:19 am
I doubt that your rant is, in fact over. U.S. soldiers are not doing the killing in Congo, in Liberia--i know of no reasonable claim that atrocities are currently being perpetrated in Serbia--U.S. forces are not "murdering" people in Israel (althought the Shrub would like to change that), nor are they responsible for AIDS deaths nor starvation. As usually, your comparisons are not analogous. People in this thread are discussing the administrations policies in Iraq, and the effects thereof.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:22 am
Ah, McG. I'm going to make note EACH TIME you deflect the argument onto some other point in the landscape. And as for your comment, just admit, willya, that there are murderers the world over and we are among them. What's different in America -- in a land in which the government says and we believe that we have a representative system -- is that when the government kills, we are responsible. Get that? WE are responsible. You and me. Murderers.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:23 am
kuvasz wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Tartarin wrote:
"Casualties of war are not murder."

They sure are, McG. And particularly so when it's not a legitimate war but an invasion of a sovereign nation.


No, they are not. Murder is an llegal act commited with malice. War produces casualties. Call it what you will, but war does not equal murder. Get over it.


they are dead nevertheless, shifting focus from those who actually did the killing and blaming someone else is nothing but an apologist's way of saying that they bear no responsibility. that is shameful.


Yes, they are dead. But to imply that the US murdered them is way off base. The US IS responsible for their deaths. Of that there is no doubt. To say it was murder IS irresponsible.

Quote:
the logical extension of your argument could easy be twisted upon itself and have osama bin laden say that the US is responsible for the deaths incurred on 9/11 because the al queada never would have committed its acts if the US leadership had acted differently leading up to 9/11.[/quote[]

No, that is not the logical extension at all. That is the product of a fevered imagination. 9-11 was a terrorist attack on an innocent civilian population. Our bombs fell on identified military objectives with the few mishaps that actually targetted civilian areas. As much as our military would like to claim they are not perfect.

To say Al Queda would never have committed those acts is ludacris.Their previous acts prove that they are a terror organization with clear goals and to say our foriegn policy is solely to blame is sorely mistaken. If you remember they also tried bombing the WTC in the early 90's. Had Clinton pursued Al Queada than, maybe none of this would have happened.

Quote:
al queada could have said that the 3,000 dead were merely "casualties of war, " not murder....it depends on one's perspective, and yours is not the only legitimate point of view here


Al Queada can not declare war as it is a terrorist organization whose sole purpose is the spread of terror and death. That is a really bad perspective. And, yes, my perspective IS the only legitimite P.O.V. here.

Quote:
it is detestable to mis-use the english language to gain political advantage by calling deaths in war merely casualties of war or collateral damage because it does not matter what the motives are, especially if the deaths are avoidable, the people are still dead.


Or to misuse it to show America as a demonized government bent on the destruction of all that is happy and good in the world. You call it mureder, I call it an unfortunate side effect of a greater good.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:23 am
McGentrix wrote:
Oh cry me a freakin' river.

Where are all of your protestations about the killing of civilians in the Congo? Or Liberia? Where are your complaints about the atrocity's going on in Serbia? Where are the tears for the murdered people in Israel? Where are the screams of horror about the millions dying of AIDS? Where are your sensitivities to the millions of children starving around the world while their govts stockpile the aid?

All you have is the endless crying of what the US Government did as though Bush was the root of all evil. Please. So many of the posts anymore are just so ridiculous that I can't believe adults write them.

/rant


well, actually those cheese eating surrender monkeys, the french are leading the international peace keeping force into the congo.

perhaps you did not keep up on current events in the late '90's the I4 NATO military forces including the US stopped the worst of the genocide in europe in a generation in serbia. theamericans only went in when it was pressured to by activists who showed the world what was happening.


as to israel, i am sure you are referring to the innocents on both sides? or just the israelis?

as to aids, bush has done little about aids in the third world, his allies dont even want condoms distributed to reduce the incidence of aids transmission because it would look like birth control devices, and his gang have done little to fight aids, even his direction of funds to fight it in africa are being taken away from the fights against other diseases. some fella there.

as to other governments stockpiling aid as their people suffer, you do know that the US spends 400BILLION dollars a year on the defense dept all the while 40 million americans are without any health insurance?...and many of us are vocal about that misapplication of our tax dollars

as to your observations about the people here who post, reflect upon your own capacity to ignore facts that make you uncomfortable and undermine your own misplaced ideologies. it is not i that am an apologist for the evil men do, but you.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:24 am
The focus of the discussion is Iraq and other Bush led atrocities. These other questions, Congo, etc., should be brought up on a thread devoted to them.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:24 am
Tartarin wrote:


... And particularly so when it's not a legitimate war but an invasion of a sovereign nation.


Do you suggest that any invasion of a sovereign nation is necessarily illegimate? Was WWII illegitimate?

The distinctions here are sloppy as usual. When one is sure beyond all doubt that he/she is morally right, then logic and clear distinctions are not evidently necessary.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:24 am
Setanta wrote:
I doubt that your rant is, in fact over. U.S. soldiers are not doing the killing in Congo, in Liberia--i know of no reasonable claim that atrocities are currently being perpetrated in Serbia--U.S. forces are not "murdering" people in Israel (althought the Shrub would like to change that), nor are they responsible for AIDS deaths nor starvation. As usually, your comparisons are not analogous. People in this thread are discussing the administrations policies in Iraq, and the effects thereof.


WTF are you talking about?
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:45 am
Quote:
And, yes, my perspective IS the only legitimite P.O.V.


That's very enlightening. Maybe there's hope for you in the next life! Laughing
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:49 am
BillW wrote:
Quote:
And, yes, my perspective IS the only legitimite P.O.V.


That's very enlightening. Maybe there's hope for you in the next life! Laughing


Sucking on the honeypot BillW? I knew that line would be the focus of a rebuttal. Why discuss the topic when you can so easily snipe at a comment, right?
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:52 am
Gosh, folks, we have a Compassionate Conservative right here with us. Went to school (I think) and grew up a Compassionate Conservative.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2003 11:55 am
The topic has been "discussed" ad infinitum. And, right now you, my friend, you are so full of honey you're stuck the corner!
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