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The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 11:44 am
The 'smartest' on the planet. Wink c.i.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 12:09 pm
Only when compared to some...

I don't think anyone in America (or should I start calling it Amerika?) is embracing totalitarianism at home. I think you may be over stating you case.

Quote:
2 : the political concept that the citizen should be totally subject to an absolute state authority


As long as we have these discussions, you can be guaranteed that we are not under any state authority. It goes back to some of the fears posted earlier about people being dragged from their homes and held indefinitly while the police state questions them and hides them from thier families and lawyers etc...Ain't gonna happen. At the very worst, you will have to put up George W. for an additional term. Than you can start the whining parade about the next President.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 01:23 pm
That's true, McG. And many of us are incredibly tired of conservative whining -- even after Bush reached the White House. This defensive, snarly-whiny Republican stuff is definitely boring.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 01:26 pm
Tartarin wrote:
That's true, McG. And many of us are incredibly tired of conservative whining -- even after Bush reached the White House. This defensive, snarly-whiny Republican stuff is definitely boring.


You know what? I agree with you.

I just wish EVERYONE could quit the whining and get back to work fixing the country.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 01:29 pm
Your first fix, McG, if you had your way?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 01:44 pm
George, far from being ashamed that we arrested Pinochet in London, I was very pleased we did so. The Spanish wanted him for murder of their citizens, just a few amongst the thousands of Chileans he killed for such offences as belonging to a trades Union or being against the bloody and illegal coup de etat that brought down the democratically elected government of Salvador Allende.

His arrest send shock waves down the spines everywhere of torturers and murderers who committed their crimes in the name of the State, not just in Chile.

That Pinochet was able to plead senile dementia and slither back to Chile did not diminish the principle that even Heads of State should be held accountable for criminal acts as heinous as those.

Pinochet should be spending his final years rotting in a Spanish gaol, not playing with his grandchildren, something he denied to thousands of his own people through abduction torture and murder.

We don't have the death penalty Europe. But if he had (accidentally) fallen from the open door of the helicopter taking him to his waiting plane there would have been much rejoicing at such natural justice.

You asked me if I had been to Chile. No I haven't. But I have met people who fled the Pinochet regime, and listened to people recounting stories from the 1970's. You are the first to have a good word for Pinochet.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 01:45 pm
Tartarin wrote:
That's true, McG. And many of us are incredibly tired of conservative whining -- even after Bush reached the White House. This defensive, snarly-whiny Republican stuff is definitely boring.


And what is it, Tartarin, that you have been doing? Offering constructive suggestions for improvement???
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:05 pm
Supporting a presidential campaign, joining a group of progressives in issues oriented petitions, staying in touch with my representatives and doing my best to keep abreast of the issues. But that's not what I was asking McG about, as I guess you didn't realize: I'm hoping to find out what his priorities are for "fixing the country," as he suggested. We might well agree about quite few things.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:14 pm
The first thing i would like to see would be a stable government that actually worked the way it was supposed to. That would entail Dems and Reps working together, a dramatic decrease in pork barrell spending, and the realization that they are working for US, not themselves. i would also see lobbying sharply reduced, if not outlawed totally, and special interest groups would have zero clout with the govt.

How's that for a start?
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:
The first thing i would like to see would be a stable government that actually worked the way it was supposed to. That would entail Dems and Reps working together, a dramatic decrease in pork barrell spending, and the realization that they are working for US, not themselves. i would also see lobbying sharply reduced, if not outlawed totally, and special interest groups would have zero clout with the govt.

How's that for a start?

McG - Explain if you will how you would outlaw or even restrict lobbying and not be trampling on 1st amendment guarantees?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:19 pm
Agreed, right down the line. (A side issue: but I'd like to see a wider spread of political parties -- not just two.)
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:26 pm
Scrat wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
The first thing i would like to see would be a stable government that actually worked the way it was supposed to. That would entail Dems and Reps working together, a dramatic decrease in pork barrell spending, and the realization that they are working for US, not themselves. i would also see lobbying sharply reduced, if not outlawed totally, and special interest groups would have zero clout with the govt.

How's that for a start?

McG - Explain if you will how you would outlaw or even restrict lobbying and not be trampling on 1st amendment guarantees?


Am I coming off as a Liberal? ugh. I hope not...But in answer to the questions...

I would say that lobbying is allowed in a public forum. no more back office meetings or country club meetings or special dinners, etc. Lobbyists can buy time in the NY Times or on TV if they want to get their points out. I think that my representative should be representing me, not what a lobbyist tells them or pays them to.

As to political parties, we should have ZERO parties, but we should have the best person for the job elected.

There should also be term limits and campaign finance reform...

No more career politicians!

*Pant-pant*

I still like Bush, so nyah!
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 02:58 pm
Quote:
That would entail Dems and Reps working together


Quote:
Am I coming off as a Liberal? ugh. I hope not...But in answer to the questions...


Quote:
the best person for the job elected.


Quote:
I still like Bush, so nyah!


Such dichotomies, saying and doing are quite at odds!
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:03 pm
BillW wrote:
Quote:
That would entail Dems and Reps working together


Quote:
Am I coming off as a Liberal? ugh. I hope not...But in answer to the questions...


Quote:
the best person for the job elected.


Quote:
I still like Bush, so nyah!


Such dichotomies, saying and doing are quite at odds!


The best person for the job...they must first be running for office. Of those who were running for office, bush was definitly the best man for the job.

Is the fact that I would like to completely decimate the current 2 party system run along liberal lines? Just wondering.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:05 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Your first fix, McG, if you had your way?


I have answered, what would be your first fix?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:13 pm
I would do away with war hawks!

I realize the best man won, but the worst man in 175 years got the job! Smile
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:15 pm
You were also real good with the lobbiest parts in the first answer and got scared out of it, I would further do away with corporate donated trips and perks.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:17 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I would say that lobbying is allowed in a public forum. no more back office meetings or country club meetings or special dinners, etc. Lobbyists can buy time in the NY Times or on TV if they want to get their points out. I think that my representative should be representing me, not what a lobbyist tells them or pays them to.

As to political parties, we should have ZERO parties, but we should have the best person for the job elected.

There should also be term limits and campaign finance reform...

No more career politicians!

*Pant-pant*

I still like Bush, so nyah!

I've still got to remind you of that pesky 1st amendment. You want the government to tell people how they can and can't use their political voice? You want the government to tell us who we can and can't vote for? You want them to tell us how we can and can't pool our resources when many of us support the same positions or policies?

I'd support increased transparency in government--no politician should be afraid to let us know who he's talking with or who is backing her financially--but beyond that, I don't want the government deciding how I can speak politically.

Oh, and I like him too. :wink:
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:24 pm
McGentrix wrote:
The first thing i would like to see would be a stable government that actually worked the way it was supposed to. That would entail Dems and Reps working together, a dramatic decrease in pork barrell spending, and the realization that they are working for US, not themselves. i would also see lobbying sharply reduced, if not outlawed totally, and special interest groups would have zero clout with the govt.

How's that for a start?


a start would be the 535 members of congress at the bottom of the ocean along with the leaders of the executive branch and all 4,000 licensed lobbyists in washington.

The bane, as you might agree, is of the enlargement of government and the concomitant power it has over society and the economy.

My friends on the Left ignore at their peril the fact that both the Civil War and the New Deal increased dramatically the influence and power of government to dictate values. They would applaud the use of government to cast out the demons of slavery, racism, segregation and the use of government to help the needy. But this is a double-edged sword because such a large artifice can be manipulated by powerful, actually, wealthy persons to line their own pockets.

Where liberals/progressives are out where the buses don't run is that they seem blind to the fact that the very artifice that they revel in to promote human(e) rights, viz., the government, as a means for social progress can be mutated to be an instrument for the furthering of economic inequality by the power of crony capitalism and the military-industrial complex.

Liberals/progressives got what they wanted, the utilization of the moral force of representative democracy to promote their causes, but they have unleashed the beast, because this apparatus is best employed as a tool for the powerful, not the weak.

As the old proverb warns, be care of what you wish for.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Jun, 2003 03:32 pm
Your point is well taken kuvasz, we are witnessing the evil as we breath!
0 Replies
 
 

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