0
   

The US, UN & Iraq III

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 08:57 pm
http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/send.cgi?page=http%3A//www.theatlantic.com/unbound/interviews/int2003-05-29.htm
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 09:02 pm
Kara, did you read the october report?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 10:36 pm
Quote:
Intelligence chiefs tell Blair: no more spin, no more stunts


MI6 and MI5 chiefs have sought the government's assurance that it will never again pass off as official intelligence information which does not come from them.

They are also insisting that any information used by Downing Street claiming to be based on intelligence should be cleared by them first.

Their demands, which the government has bowed to, reflect deep unease in the intelligence community about the government's attempt to use secret information to push its case for military action against Iraq.

Senior officials in the security and intelligence services made it clear that the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq was not as great as ministers suggested.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,970680,00.html
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 10:49 pm
What started as a tentative trickle has erupted into a flood of main stream coverage of WMD issues. About time too. Glad to see it too. Not being swept under the rug. Hasn't peaked yet either.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 10:56 pm
Hi Sooz, Want to read the Cia report the shrub used to determine if we should go to war?
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm#01

probably this and probably that.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Jun, 2003 11:19 pm
Gelis - It appears that the US had no absolute intelligence to indicate that Al Qaeda would attack and kill over 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001. Based on your criteria you would have had us do nothing to stop them if we had possessed intelligence that only stated the attack was "probable". Confused

And of course, you continue to ignore the fact that everyone knows Saddam had weapons for which no one has yet accounted. You want us to believe that it is more likely that Saddam destroyed them secretly--when doing so openly would have allowed the lifting of the sanctions that were crushing his economy and his people, and that he was willing to have the coalition take his country by force rather than give evidence of the disposition of those known weapons stocks.

Did the administration overstate their case? Maybe. Did they have reason to believe Saddam had WOMDs? Absolutely.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:17 am
WOW
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:30 am
Gelisgesti, what October report?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:30 am
Be careful of 9/11, Scrat. Some REALLY embarrassing stuff may be about to turn up there...
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:39 am
the cia report from oct 2002 ..... i poste it on page 210 ..... or somewhere around there
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:40 am
Co-author of "Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W.Bush Presidential"
(http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/brain.html)


EXCLUSIVE BUZZFLASH GUEST COMMENTARY

President George W. Bush is a draft dodger. And his cowardice is the worst kind. Mr. Bush avoided both combat and making any kind of political statement on the War in Vietnam. While others served, giving their lives and limbs, or took part in a protest movement to end the war, the president's family connections got him a safe spot in the Texas Air National Guard. This is not the profile of a leader.

In 1994, during his first run for Governor of Texas, I was a panelist on a televised debate between Mr. Bush and Ann Richards. I was the first person in his life to ask him how he got into the National Guard so easily when there were more than 100,000 young men on waiting lists around the country. Mr. Bush said there was a shortage of pilots and he was willing to make the six year training commitment that others were not.

That is not true. There was no shortage. And when he got one of the coveted spots, Mr. Bush failed to honor his commitment.

Sgt. Donald Barnhart of the Texas Guard said there was a waiting list of 150 names for Bush's unit and a minimum of 18 months passed before an applicant was moved to the top. Historian for the Texas Air National Guard, Tom Hall, reported Bush's Houston air wing was authorized for 29 pilots and had 27. But two replacements were already in training and another pilot was awaiting transfer. There was no shortage.

But there were family connections.

In a deposition for an unrelated lawsuit, former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes said he took a call from Bush family friend Sid Adger, a Houston businessman, asking for the favor of moving Bush up on the Guard's waiting list. Barnes said he called General James Rose, commanding officer of the Guard, and the request was granted. Adger was one of former President Bush's oldest and closest friends. A spokesman said the first President Bush "loved" Mr. Adger.

The son of then Congressman George H. W. Bush joined an Air Guard unit at
Ellington Air Force Base where he served with the son of U.S. Senator John Tower and Lloyd Bentsen III, also a Texas senator's son.

Immediately after basic training, Bush got a direct appointment to Second Lieutenant, circumventing a rigorous qualification process, which normally involved Officer Candidate School. Charles Shoemake, who retired from the Texas Guard as a full colonel, said such appointments were rare, hard to get, and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a non-commissioned officer," he said. "Then I got considered for a direct appointment."

During his answer to my debate question in 1994, Mr. Bush said he could have been called up for duty in Vietnam. He had to know that was not true, either. On his Guard application, the future president checked a box saying he did "not" want to be considered for overseas deployment. Additionally, he was hundreds of hours short of flight time required for foreign duty, and the aircraft he flew, the F-102 was no longer being used in Southeast Asia.

After being rejected once, Mr. Bush reapplied and was granted a transfer to a Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. But he never showed up for duty. Instead, he spent his days working on a U.S. Senate campaign for a family friend. During his own presidential campaign, Mr. Bush's staff showed reporters a tattered piece of paper, missing a last name, as proof he reported for duty in Alabama. But both the CO of the Alabama unit, and his administrative officer, said they have no record or memory of Mr. Bush showing up. Not one of the approximately 700 men in the Alabama unit has ever stepped forward to say they remember Mr. Bush serving with them.

"Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," Commander William Turnipseed said. "If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Nonetheless, Mr. Bush maintained his flight status until 1972, when he failed to show up for a required physical. His campaign initially said he did not return to Houston because his family physician was unavailable to conduct the physical. When it was made clear such exams are given by military doctors, the campaign then explained that Mr. Bush did not take the physical because he had "decided" he would no longer fly. This is a unique approach to military service when the enlistee gets to "decide" his future duties.
The year Mr. Bush skipped his physical, 1972, was also the first year the Guard began to institute random drug testing procedures.

Mr. Bush was grounded, his flight status revoked, and a punishment order was signed posting him to civilian duty in Denver. No evidence has ever been presented that he showed up there, either.

As the presidential campaign planning began in Texas, Lieutenant Colonel Bill Burkett of the Texas Guard said he overheard orders from the Governor's office to "scrub" Mr. Bush's records. Burkett said he listened as Joe Allbaugh and Dan Bartlett, both of whom went to Washington with the president, told Major General Daniel James, commander of the Texas Guard, to "make sure there is nothing embarrassing in the governor's file." Burkett, who was chief advisor to General James, also said he was present when the records were surrendered for scrubbing.

After he took office, Commander in Chief George W. Bush promoted Daniel James to CO of the U.S. National Guard in Washington.

And now, by stepping into a flight uniform and appearing on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln, the president has insulted the men and women who served honorably in Iraq, and the more than 58 thousand heroes whose names are etched into black granite in Washington, and the surviving Vietnam Vets.

Since Mr. Bush seems oblivious, perhaps it is our duty, as citizens, to be ashamed for him. We are also obligated to ask, "Who fought in your place, Mr. President?"

EXCLUSIVE BUZZFLASH GUEST COMMENTARY


The BuzzFlash Interview with James Moore is available at:
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/06/02_moore.html
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 05:49 am
Kara


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm#01
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 06:49 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Co-author of "Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W.Bush Presidential"
(http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/brain.html)


EXCLUSIVE BUZZFLASH GUEST COMMENTARY

President George W. Bush is a draft dodger. And his cowardice is the worst kind. Mr. Bush avoided both combat and making any kind of political statement on the War in Vietnam. While others served, giving their lives and limbs, or took part in a protest movement to end the war, the president's family connections got him a safe spot in the Texas Air National Guard. This is not the profile of a leader.

In 1994, during his first run for Governor of Texas, I was a panelist on a televised debate between Mr. Bush and Ann Richards. I was the first person in his life to ask him how he got into the National Guard so easily when there were more than 100,000 young men on waiting lists around the country. Mr. Bush said there was a shortage of pilots and he was willing to make the six year training commitment that others were not.

That is not true. There was no shortage. And when he got one of the coveted spots, Mr. Bush failed to honor his commitment.

Sgt. Donald Barnhart of the Texas Guard said there was a waiting list of 150 names for Bush's unit and a minimum of 18 months passed before an applicant was moved to the top. Historian for the Texas Air National Guard, Tom Hall, reported Bush's Houston air wing was authorized for 29 pilots and had 27. But two replacements were already in training and another pilot was awaiting transfer. There was no shortage.

But there were family connections.

In a deposition for an unrelated lawsuit, former Texas House Speaker Ben Barnes said he took a call from Bush family friend Sid Adger, a Houston businessman, asking for the favor of moving Bush up on the Guard's waiting list. Barnes said he called General James Rose, commanding officer of the Guard, and the request was granted. Adger was one of former President Bush's oldest and closest friends. A spokesman said the first President Bush "loved" Mr. Adger.

The son of then Congressman George H. W. Bush joined an Air Guard unit at
Ellington Air Force Base where he served with the son of U.S. Senator John Tower and Lloyd Bentsen III, also a Texas senator's son.

Immediately after basic training, Bush got a direct appointment to Second Lieutenant, circumventing a rigorous qualification process, which normally involved Officer Candidate School. Charles Shoemake, who retired from the Texas Guard as a full colonel, said such appointments were rare, hard to get, and required extensive credentials. "I went from master sergeant to first lieutenant based on my three years in college and 15 years as a non-commissioned officer," he said. "Then I got considered for a direct appointment."

During his answer to my debate question in 1994, Mr. Bush said he could have been called up for duty in Vietnam. He had to know that was not true, either. On his Guard application, the future president checked a box saying he did "not" want to be considered for overseas deployment. Additionally, he was hundreds of hours short of flight time required for foreign duty, and the aircraft he flew, the F-102 was no longer being used in Southeast Asia.

After being rejected once, Mr. Bush reapplied and was granted a transfer to a Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. But he never showed up for duty. Instead, he spent his days working on a U.S. Senate campaign for a family friend. During his own presidential campaign, Mr. Bush's staff showed reporters a tattered piece of paper, missing a last name, as proof he reported for duty in Alabama. But both the CO of the Alabama unit, and his administrative officer, said they have no record or memory of Mr. Bush showing up. Not one of the approximately 700 men in the Alabama unit has ever stepped forward to say they remember Mr. Bush serving with them.

"Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," Commander William Turnipseed said. "If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Nonetheless, Mr. Bush maintained his flight status until 1972, when he failed to show up for a required physical. His campaign initially said he did not return to Houston because his family physician was unavailable to conduct the physical. When it was made clear such exams are given by military doctors, the campaign then explained that Mr. Bush did not take the physical because he had "decided" he would no longer fly. This is a unique approach to military service when the enlistee gets to "decide" his future duties.
The year Mr. Bush skipped his physical, 1972, was also the first year the Guard began to institute random drug testing procedures.

Mr. Bush was grounded, his flight status revoked, and a punishment order was signed posting him to civilian duty in Denver. No evidence has ever been presented that he showed up there, either.

As the presidential campaign planning began in Texas, Lieutenant Colonel Bill Burkett of the Texas Guard said he overheard orders from the Governor's office to "scrub" Mr. Bush's records. Burkett said he listened as Joe Allbaugh and Dan Bartlett, both of whom went to Washington with the president, told Major General Daniel James, commander of the Texas Guard, to "make sure there is nothing embarrassing in the governor's file." Burkett, who was chief advisor to General James, also said he was present when the records were surrendered for scrubbing.

After he took office, Commander in Chief George W. Bush promoted Daniel James to CO of the U.S. National Guard in Washington.

And now, by stepping into a flight uniform and appearing on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln, the president has insulted the men and women who served honorably in Iraq, and the more than 58 thousand heroes whose names are etched into black granite in Washington, and the surviving Vietnam Vets.

Since Mr. Bush seems oblivious, perhaps it is our duty, as citizens, to be ashamed for him. We are also obligated to ask, "Who fought in your place, Mr. President?"

EXCLUSIVE BUZZFLASH GUEST COMMENTARY


The BuzzFlash Interview with James Moore is available at:
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/06/02_moore.html


Wow...what an insightful peice. Rolling Eyes

If my son was of age to be drafted, and I could do something to prevent his going to war, you could bet you left nut I would. I am glad to know that if there is another draft I can rely on people like this author to push their sons into the war.
0 Replies
 
jackie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:07 am
X X X X X
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:08 am
It's tempting to wonder whether radicals know the difference between truth and lie. Bush does. Rove does. Whatsa matta with their followers?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:10 am
McGentry, try a night crawler, hooked once through the head with a .25oz split shot about 12" up ....... let em run a little before you set up Wink
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:12 am
I find it delightful to contemplate that an avid supporter of Bush's dirty little war supports such ventures on the basis of "as long as it's someone else's kid, and not mine."
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:15 am
Set, right on as usual
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:18 am
jackie wrote:
McGentrix, I quote"

Quote:
If my son was of age to be drafted, and I could do something to prevent his going to war, you could bet you left nut I would. I am glad to know that if there is another draft I can rely on people like this author to push their sons into the war.



Senior Bush and clan had the resources to keep shrub Bush from war, yet both Father and son have no qualms about ordering other families children to the front lines.
Do you think this ever keeps either of them UP at night?

No, I think when the Grampa and Gramma Bush walk the floor, it is probably about "What on earth are these kids going to do next?"


I think the confusion exists in calling him a draft dodger...It's not like he ran and hid in Canada with the real cowards. He served his country in the National Guard. Was it safer to do that? Sure. Of course it was. I would do the same thing for myself, my son, or anyone. Keep in mind though that many of our National Gaurd units are at this very moment defending our country in Afghanistan and Iraq even as we speak. I have a lot of respect for the Gaurd. Apparently the author of the article doesn't.

I also believe that Senior Bush served his country in the Navy

Quote:
On his 18th birthday he enlisted in the armed forces. The youngest pilot in the Navy when he received his wings, he flew 58 combat missions during World War II. On one mission over the Pacific as a torpedo bomber pilot he was shot down by Japanese antiaircraft fire and was rescued from the water by a U. S. submarine. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for bravery in action.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Jun, 2003 07:22 am
Setanta wrote:
I find it delightful to contemplate that an avid supporter of Bush's dirty little war supports such ventures on the basis of "as long as it's someone else's kid, and not mine."


My father spent 26 years in the Air Force, is a viet Nam Vet, and served his country. Both my brothers were also in the service. I will leave the decision of joining the service to my son when he is old enough to make sound decisions himself thank you.

What have you done for your country?
0 Replies
 
 

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