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Canadian Election: Why should I care?!!

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2006 11:45 pm
nimh wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
nimh wrote:
Well, the one positive thing one can say about that article is that at least the National Review's agenda is not "hidden".

I doubt that kind of partisan fervor would persuade anyone who isn't already a Conservative anyway, though.


I'm sure both the National Review and the author will be extremely pleased to know that you can find one positive thing to say.

Yeah no they wont be too alarmed ... but if you post an article here then yeah, you're liable to get people saying what they think of it... duh.

Articles like that are a form of masturbation ... an opportunity to go "oh yeah, yeah, exactly, thats it!" at the reflection of your own opinions. Glee for the believers (see JW above).

Of course, perhaps the NRO should ask itself the question how come the "He'll turn our country into Bush-type America" threat proved so effective a campaign strategy last time in the first place. What exactly is it about Bush-era America that the mere hint of a politician turning the country into something similar was enough to scare the voters back into the arms of a burnt-out government?


Oh, you can say whatever you'd like about it nimh, and you can say it in whatever manner you please. Particularly if it makes you feel especially good. You know, like masturbation.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 02:06 am
Setanta wrote:
Ever-body should vote New Democrat--it's the most effective way to throw a wrench in the works . . .


Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or no.... Laughing

Either way, I'd be interested to hear more. I love it when people speak politics around me. I was greatly starved of political education as a yout'.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 08:49 am
Finn, we need to tread lightly around our resident psephologist. He becomes cranky and depressed at the mere thought of a conservative victory and his normally tolerant disposition is cast aside in the sheer frustration of it all. I'm quite sure it's almost an "out of body" experience for him.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 08:54 am
I was being sarcastic, and i wasn't . . .

Ed Broadbent lead 44 New Democrats into Ottawa in 1988, and it put the government on notice, and conditioned their programs. Mulrooney was obliged to form a coalition with the BQ, because the alternative was a coalition with the NDP, which would have made the Reagan-loving Tories choke.

In this election, a large return of New Democrats would force either Liberals or Tories to form a coalition with them, because after the 1995 separatist vote, and the revelations of the sponsorship scandal, it is unlikely that anyone could form a coalition with the BQ. New Democrats in a coalition condition the program of the government to the left, and as both Liberals and Tories are right-wing (to different degrees), this would lead to balance.

In my never humble opinion . . .
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 09:06 am
nimh wrote:
Of course, perhaps the NRO should ask itself the question how come the "He'll turn our country into Bush-type America" threat proved so effective a campaign strategy last time in the first place. What exactly is it about Bush-era America that the mere hint of a politician turning the country into something similar was enough to scare the voters back into the arms of a burnt-out government?


Or, perhaps the NRO sees that ploy in much the same way as the writer of this WAPO article....

Quote:
Polls show a deep antipathy among Canadians toward the Bush administration, made more acute by the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That has carried over to a more general anti-Americanism, and academics here have made a cottage industry of talking about the divergence of values between Canadians and Americans.

Martin sought to corral that sentiment by portraying Harper as dangerously pro-American. But the strategy appeared to backfire in this campaign, exacerbating his slide in the polls.

"In the last campaign, those attack ads worked. This time they won't. People are just fed up," said Peter Bryce, 46, a financial manager who said the political rally in this town west of Toronto was the first he had attended.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 09:26 am
It's actually a bit the reverse, JW.

~~~~

and the attack ad didn't have much of an effect as it was only aired once - very few people saw it. some heard about it - but only if they were real political junkies.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 09:30 am
I think nimh was referring to the ads in the last campaign.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 09:52 am
I was referring to your WAPO link, JW.

~~~~~~~

the latest estimate from nodice of how the seats will break out tomorrow night <works for me - as it would be another minority government>

http://www.nodice.ca/elections/canada/projections.php

DATE CON LIB BQ NDP OTH

01/18/06 126 93 59 29 0

01/17/06 131 85 57 33 0

01/16/06 140 76 57 35 0



a slight slide in conservative numbers over the last week, with a slight liberal increase. not that it matters much - they're both right of centre parties
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:05 am
JustWonders wrote:
nimh wrote:
Of course, perhaps the NRO should ask itself the question how come the "He'll turn our country into Bush-type America" threat proved so effective a campaign strategy last time in the first place. What exactly is it about Bush-era America that the mere hint of a politician turning the country into something similar was enough to scare the voters back into the arms of a burnt-out government?


Or, perhaps the NRO sees that ploy in much the same way as the writer of this WAPO article....

Quote:
Polls show a deep antipathy among Canadians toward the Bush administration, made more acute by the invasion and occupation of Iraq. That has carried over to a more general anti-Americanism, and academics here have made a cottage industry of talking about the divergence of values between Canadians and Americans.

Martin sought to corral that sentiment by portraying Harper as dangerously pro-American. But the strategy appeared to backfire in this campaign, exacerbating his slide in the polls.

"In the last campaign, those attack ads worked. This time they won't. People are just fed up," said Peter Bryce, 46, a financial manager who said the political rally in this town west of Toronto was the first he had attended.

Do you really think it was only ever the Iraq war that made the "watch out, he'll turn our country into America" strategy so successful? That otherwise, there wouldnt have been a "carry-over" in more general anti-Americanism?

That sounds very naive ... deluded, even. If it hadnt been for the Iraq war, Canadians and others would love to have their country become just like Bush's America? Not...

Perhaps some deeper introspection would yield a slightly more credible explanation?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:31 am
JustWonders wrote:
Finn, we need to tread lightly around our resident psephologist. He becomes cranky and depressed at the mere thought of a conservative victory and his normally tolerant disposition is cast aside in the sheer frustration of it all.

Darnit, now you have me grasping for the dictionary (psephologist?).

But no, when it comes to my motivation you have the wrong end of the stick as much as you had with the Canadians.

Its not "the mere thought of a conservative victory" that makes me as cranky as above. And by now, you should be able to recognize what it is that sets me off, instead -- its not like I havent ridden this hobby-horse often enough. Its that kind of journalism.

I hate bad journalism, I exasperate at the red-meat, chest-thumping partisan commenting that is only ever meant (or will only ever achieve) a feel-good effect for the already converted. And yeah, thats a totally bipartisan sin. Its no less annoying when someone quotes one of those troop-rallying Michael Moore "analyses". And that woman in the NYT - whatshername - Maureen Dowd - whenever I read one of her columns, sometimes it makes me grin, but I always feel kind of dirty afterwards - because I know it was only just partisan glee, anyway.

I hate that kind of "reporting", for one, because it makes it quite hard to discern actual new information in between the rhetorics. Secondly, because it replaces (or passes off) partisan editorialising, or even simply cackling glee, for "reporting". Third, I hate it for how dominant it seems to have become in (American/UK) journalism (where even mainstream articles often, lazily, pass off quoting respective comments by a Democratic and a Republican partisan 'analyst', neither never more than spin, as "balanced reporting"). Fourth, for how especially dominant it is in the political discourse you'll find on a site like A2K.

Everybody just loves to quote an editorialising type article that makes them go, "yeah! exactly!". None of such articles ever achieves or illucidates anything, except for making the partisans of one side or the other bond and yell, "see?!" at the other side, maintaining a consistently childish level of discourse. Worst is when people cant even see how their quoted thumper is not, actually, journalism -- or when, like Foxfyre did I think -- they actually reject traditional, straight news reporting as "biased" and perceive their side's Fox News or Daily Kos stuff as the real fair and balanced work. The extent to which a poster starts or retorts to threads by quoting "thumpers" pretty much determines how I estimate them.

See how this can make me go off on a rant? I would never get fired up enough about a possible Conservative election victory in Canada, Romania, Laos or Ethiopia (sorry Canadians) to spend five passionate paragraphs on it like this. But this lazy cackling-type journalism? Oh brother. Dont get me started ... oh well, too late. Not for the first time, obviously, either (so i'm surprised you hadnt recognized...).
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:35 am
nimh wrote:
Do you really think it was only ever the Iraq war that made the "watch out, he'll turn our country into America" strategy so successful? That otherwise, there wouldnt have been a "carry-over" in more general anti-Americanism?

That sounds very naive ... deluded, even. If it hadnt been for the Iraq war, Canadians and others would love to have their country become just like Bush's America? Not...

Perhaps some deeper introspection would yield a slightly more credible explanation?


Not at all. I think since 9/11 it has just become more apparent perhaps (to more Americans) that Canada is very much like Europe in its outlook and its politics...and in its dislike of the US. I really don't think most Americans pay all that much attention to Canadian politics. Even if they did, it wouldn't change much, would it?
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:37 am
Most Canadians don't pay attention to Canadian politics.
Most Americans don't pay attention to American politics.

That most Americans don't pay attention to Canadian politics is a bit of a no-brainer.
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 10:45 am
Yes, nimh...and it's your characterizing me being amused by one paragraph in one article as "gleeful" that prompted my characterization of your crankiness. A "tit for tat" so to speak. I appreciate your honesty and always assume as much when I see your criticisms of "that kind of reporting", but you yourself admit you don't always apply the same standards to both sides. That's understandable, as well, but it's now (with the bloggers, the internet, the "everyone has an opinion") a fact of life that we'll all have to wade through some "chest-thumping partisan commenting" to get to the good stuff.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 07:11 pm
JustWonders wrote:
I appreciate your honesty and always assume as much when I see your criticisms of "that kind of reporting", but you yourself admit you don't always apply the same standards to both sides.

Huh? Where'd I do that? I thought that even in my post just now I again emphasized how "that kind of reporting" makes me feel soiled whichever side does it.

JustWonders wrote:
That's understandable, as well, but it's now (with the bloggers, the internet, the "everyone has an opinion") a fact of life that we'll all have to wade through some "chest-thumping partisan commenting" to get to the good stuff.

Nonsense. From what you post here when you do a copy/paste (increasingly rarely, I happily observe, unless I'm wrong), I can only assume that you, for example, often actually look up that kind of stuff. Whereas avoiding it and getting to the good stuff is simple enough.

How? Avoid blogs, in principle, unless they're the really nerdy kind thats specifically out to prove data about something specific. Avoid editorials or, in particular, op-ed pieces. Focus on news stories, and browse academic journals rather than campaigning sites. Avoid columnists, and crunch numbers yourself.

The increasing addiction to "chest-thumping partisan commenting" is intellectual laziness, nothing more.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2006 07:21 pm
Well, I looked at eight campaign ads from the Canadian elections that are linked for appraisal on this Toronto Star page. Cant say I'm impressed much.

On the page, you can vote whether an ad made you more likely or less likely to vote for the party in question, or whether it had no impact.

Now, on the basis of what I read, I'm rooting for the NDP to get to control the balance in parliament - to get as strong as possible - and possibly, to replace the Liberals as a true left-wing party, eventually. But the two ads of theirs that are linked in are both crap. They say nothing whatsoever about the NDP itself, only attacking the Liberals. The saccharine-sweet voice of the woman making the attacks adds to a sickly sense of hipocrisy. And they're just plain amateuristic.

Of the three Liberal ads, I gave one the thumbs up, as it concisely listed the (alleged) differences between Harper and Martin's programmes. But the ad with the 'random' youngsters praising the government's economic performance in implausibly campaign-literature sounding soundbites was lame. The one about Mike Harris didnt impact me.

Of the three Conservative ads, IMO, the second one, overlaying quotes of Liberals claiming they're not corrupt with news headlines about their corruption, and 'ordinary people' shaking their heads at it, is pretty effective. The third one, about crime, is the same old right-wing rhetorical tripe. So one up and one down of those too. The one about the Liberal attack ads didnt do much for me one way or another.

Whatyouthink?
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 12:06 am
nimh, I have been totally unimpressed with all the campaigns.
Do they think we are morons?!
Ok, sure, most of us of don't bother to do our 'homework'.
But, C'mon!
Laughing

The Green Party is the most pathetic of the bunch. They need some serious brains to get in there and build. My opinion.
At least the others have most of their bases covered. Laughing

I would really like to vote FOR someone/party rather than a reactionary vote.
Still undecided.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 02:28 am
I'm voting NPD 'cause I hate them the least at this moment in time although there is no party that emphasizes a hands off social policy, Laissez Faire
economic policy, real antitrust action, real choices through private competition in health care and other stuff.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 12:29 pm
I just got back from the polls. My one small vote has been cast. Now sitting back to see the results. Whatever happens, I will not be impressed.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:06 pm
Oh, spill it, Intrepid! We're curious! Whatcha vote? ;-)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jan, 2006 01:12 pm
Bizarre! Shocked

Quote:
Eating a ballot, not returning it or otherwise destroying or defacing it constitutes a serious breach of the Canada Elections Act.


Quote:
Disaffected and angry voters, take note: spoiling your ballot is a crime.

There's no legal way to express disgust for politics via the ballot, whether by scribbling on it, writing obscenities, or drawing pictures.

According to section 167(2)(a) of the Canada Elections Act, "no person shall wilfully alter, deface or destroy a ballot." Conviction could bring a $500 fine or three months in jail -- even though the chances of getting caught are effectively nil.

Nil, that is, unless the spoiler wants to make a show of the protest -- by eating the ballot, for example.

Members of the Edible Ballot Society tried that method in the 2000 election but the trend faded after a number of prosecutions.

Note - its not the eating action I found bizarre: but that its a $500 crime to invalidate your ballot!

Thats just wrong.

They should take a cue from Russia, where voters explicitly have the opportunity, on the ballot form, to vote "against all" (something that up to 5% of the voters have done in the past)
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