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ACLU chastised by Federal Appeals court

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 04:28 am
Mortkat wrote:
I am very much afraid that you cannot give such short shrift to such an important topic, francis.


Nor I intend to. Nor you can, based on your previous unsubstantiated post.

And, having read some of your previous posts, based on you seemingly assured convictions, I'm very much afraid if I even tried, you would sweep it away without even giving it a thought..
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 04:37 am
Well,keep reading, Francis. Perhaps someone will bring up the topic of Meritocracy and you can learn something.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 07:49 am
Mortkat wrote:
Well,keep reading, Francis. Perhaps someone will bring up the topic of Meritocracy and you can learn something.


From a Britannica article

Quote:
French culture is derived from an ancient civilization composed of a complex mix of Celtic, Greco-Roman, and Germanic elements. Monuments, especially from the period of Roman occupation, are numerous ...
... The culture of the Enlightenment was built on reason and analytic argumentation, mirrored, as political scientist Alexis de Tocqueville remarked, in the French Revolution's

attraction for general theories, for general systems of legislation, the exact symmetry of lawsÂ…the same desire to remake the entire constitution at once following the rules of logic and in accordance with a single plan, instead of seeking ways to amend its parts.


Among its tenets was the idea of meritocracy, or an aristocracy of ability and intelligence, which accorded a central place to intellectuals unknown in most other societies and opened France's schools to students from the provinces without regard for social class.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 08:20 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
Among its tenets was the idea of meritocracy, or an aristocracy of ability and intelligence, which accorded a central place to intellectuals unknown in most other societies and opened France's schools to students from the provinces without regard for social class.


It was more than 200 years ago and, unfortunatelly, it never worked.
The percentage of workers' sons in ENA (Ecole Nationale d'Administration) is about 3%.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 08:32 am
I know. That quote actually should be hint for a poster that his question is known in France.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 08:54 am
I understood it as so, Walter... and my comment was intended for those who want learn something..
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 09:03 am
Those, I suppose, know it as well.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 09:05 am
I know nothing but I did graduate the 8th grade.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 09:17 am
Pretty high slope, 8% grade...
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Anon-Voter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 10:45 am
dyslexia wrote:
I know nothing but I did graduate the 8th grade.


Too bad not everyone here has!!

Anon
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 11:19 am
true enough
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 11:56 am
I challenge the idea of Meritocracy in France. I am sure that it can be shown that Meritocracy is alive and well in the United States as compared to the sclerotic French system.

Our minorities, both religious and ethnic, include African-Americans, Asians and Jews. I hold that because of the US adherence to meritocracy, as compared to the European brand, which compels the aspirant to struggle through the miasma of Socialistic concepts before finding the fresh air of success, is much more easily accessible to minorities.

The French are certainly not welcoming large numbers of Arabs into their Ecole Superiors and the Germans are consistently receiving poor marks for their school systems. How can Meritocracy thrive under that kind of situation. According to the Organization for Economic Development annual report( Education at a Glance) Germany spent only 6 percent more on its primary and secondary schools and 7% more on its university systems from 1995 through 2001. In OECD countries, the number of college and university students increased by an average of 40 percent, but Germany, Austria and France experienced no growth at all.

source

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,13283191,00.html
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 01:00 pm
gatos, did you graduate the 8th grade?
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jan, 2006 06:01 pm
I am sorry that "meritocracy" has not worked in France. It would appear to have worked quite well here in the USA. It is not perfect, of course, but evidence shows that it is a very strong factor.

Francis may not be aware that some of our MOST PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITIES such as Harvard and Yale had to be pulled into the Twentieth Century kicking and screaming. At one time( post World War II) admission to those Universities was fairly well limited to the sons of the well to do. After World War II, the two Universities were forced to allow more sons of the common people to enroll. Harvard became a destination for many many Jews who excelled academically but were not considered blue-bloods.

I propose that Francis, if he has access to the information, list for us the names of the people who have recently achieved high honors in the best Universities in France--let us say--the University of Paris or the University of Strasbourg.

I will list the names of some of the people who graduated from Harvard with Phi Beta Kappa Honors. Harvard is arguably the best University in the United States and Phi Beta Kappa honorees are usually the best among the graduates.

I have access to a listing of the Phi Beta Kappa graduates of 1994.

There were 85 Phi Beta Kappas listed in the 1994 class out of about 1603 graduates that year. That means that slightly over 5% of the graduating class were honored as the "cream of the crop" That would be about one of twenty.

AND WHO WERE THESE PHI BETA KAPPAS WHO COULD GO OUT, ON THE STRENGTH OF THEIR PRESTIGIOUS DEGREES FROM HARVARD TOPPED OFF BY A PHI BETA KAPPA HONOR?

I will list 25 of them for you.

Howard Yuan-Hso Chang

Arthur Pai-Shih Chu

Randall Eng

Quin Rong Fan

Kenji Fujita

FIlbert Hui-pek Hong

Florence Ida Hsu

Don H. Kim

Daniel W. Kung

Albert Kimin Lee

Michael Lin

David Ruchien Liu

Ravinda Majeti

Ayelet Kuper Margalioth

Paras Praful Mehta

Ali Partovi

Annapurna Podjuri

Shanti Rabindran

Rajat Rohatgi

Roopka Shah

Rahul Somvanshi

Tony Tsai

Kuanhong Wang

Tony Hao Wong

Jichun Xu

That is 25 out of 85 or about 30% who have achieved the highest in scholaship. They are all, as I am sure you may have noted--- Asians. They most assuredly do not come from the old line aristocracy in the USA.

That is the definition of Meritocracy in the USA. Asians, who are a minority, achieve at a very high rate at the best of the USA's Univerisities.

Would a listing of the French Graduates from the U. of Paris show as much diversity?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 12:53 am
Not 8th grade, it seems.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 02:58 am
8 pages and not a hint of an intelligent discussion.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Jan, 2006 03:07 am
Sorry, I cannot play "intelligent"...

(Seems to be a game of winning the point, mine is bigger than yours and so on..when it's not simply bashing!)
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Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:08 am
It would appear that my challenge to Francis and Walter Hinteler exceeds their ability to respond.

I will reiterate--I hold that Meritocracy exists in the United States as shown by the data I presented. Francis stated he did not believe Meritocracy was operative. He is wrong. It is, as I have shown, alive and well in the United States.
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Francis
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:33 am
Mortkat wrote:
It would appear that my challenge to Francis and Walter Hinteler exceeds their ability to respond.

Assuming can be very self gratifying...

Francis, some time ago, on another thread, wrote:
On the other hand you have not to feel compelled to respond any piece of crap... .
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2006 02:52 am
You may be right, Francis. You may indeed have a good crap detector.

On the other hand, you may be wrong. Your assertions may only be a cloak for inablity to respond.

You believe what you want to believe and Ill believe what I want to believe. In the meantime, my post stands-UNREBUTTED!
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