The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism

In 1938, the Fascist Italian regime passed antisemitic laws under pressure from Nazi Germany, These laws forbade marriage between Jews and non-Jews and removed Jewish teachers from the public schools. Foreign Jews living as refugees in Italy were confined in internment camps. Here they lived under bearable conditions: families stayed together and the camps provided schools, cultural activities, and social events.

Italians generally refused to participate in genocide, or to permit deportations from Italy or the Italian occupation zones in Yugoslavia, Greece, and France to the Nazi extermination camps. Italian military officers and officials usually protected Jews and Italian-occupied areas were relatively safe for Jews. Between 1941 and 1943, thousands of Jews escaped to Italy and Italian-occupied territory from German-occupied territory.

Those facts do not undermine the basic thrust of setanta's remrk, viz., Italian Fascists had absolutely no need of a racist component in the ideology."

While the European fascism of Germany, Romania's (with Codreanu), and Britain's (with Mosley) all held a core hatred for Jews, other European forms of fascism or more appropriately, anti-communistic-authoritarian nationalism, as in France, Spain, Portugal did not.

Italy was also in that latter group, precisely because anti-Semitism was not a vital, functional part of the Corporatist and Syndicalist ideologies and conditions from which Italian fascism grew.

Calling Italian fascism anti-Semitic for what Germany forced it to do to Italian Jews sixteen years after Mussolini took power ignores what Italian fascism was based upon.

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First of all, to dispense, once again, with your nonsense--i at no time stated that Italian fascists were or were not anti-semitic. I rather suspect that, as was the case with the French--and especially the working class in both countries--anti-semitism was rather common, although the degree of virulence likely varied considerably from one individual to the next. As i've also already pointed out, you carefully step around the treatment of Italian Jews by the Italians, and it is the more hilarious that you do so as you found it necessary to virtually shout about actions speaking louder than words. My thanks to Kuvasz for taking the time to express in detail what i was content merely to point out to you. I frankly don't think someone of your political predilections is worth that much effort.

But then we have this:

Mortkat wrote:

You seem to be making the argument, viewed with horror by the always erudite but sometimes mistaken Blatham,that our "crimes" in the AbuGhirab should be overlooked since the crimes of the insurgents who cut off heads are much more egregious.

Woohoo, Boy, what kind of drugs produce a paragraph like that ? ! ? ! ? This is one occassion upon which i most definitely don't want any of whatever it is that you're smoking.

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I think some of our fellow Americans have ideas of a more supple friendlier kind of fascism. If you throw a frog into boiling water he'll jump out but if you throw him into cool water and boil him slowly you can kill. Can you feel the temperature rising?

What do you think set?

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I go back to my original analysis with regard to fascims--it's just plutocracy with comic opera uniforms. I don't for a moment believe it appropriate to describe the American polity as fascist, or moving toward fascims. I do, however, consider it already to be plutocratic.

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I speak too loosely sometimes Set. I stand corrected(you let me off easy I see). There was a short period of time before and after the war started that reminded me of fascism (all I know about fascism I learned from books). I asked some holocaust survivors what they thought at the time and they said it was the same.

The constitution upheld and practised makes fascism impossible.

I still think some powerful Americans have some very bad ideas though.

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Question- Were the Italian Fascist Racists?

Answer: Yes

Proof-The set up the "Maniofesto Della Razza"

That means the RACIAL LAWS.

Now, having "NO NEED" of a racist component in the Ideology means nothing.

The Fascists under Mussolini established THE MANIFESTO DELLA RAZZA and if Setanta and Kuvasz wish to say that is not a racist document I guess that they can.

But they should try to read it first!!!!!

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Mortkat wrote:

Question- Were the Italian Fascist Racists?

Answer: Yes

Proof-The set up the "Maniofesto Della Razza"

That means the RACIAL LAWS.

You dealt with your own straw man succinctly, and efficiently, mortkat. Neither Setanta or kuvasz said that the Italian Facists weren't racist.

Now, about the contention about Italian Fascism having no need for a racist component, you could have said, "that is false," or "I do not agree," and articulated your case thereafter.

Saying,

Quote:

Now, having "NO NEED" of a racist component in the Ideology means nothing.

itself means nothing.

The statement,

Quote:

The Fascists under Mussolini established THE MANIFESTO DELLA RAZZA and if Setanta and Kuvasz wish to say that is not a racist document I guess that they can.

is a straw man.

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Mortkat wrote:

Question- Were the Italian Fascist Racists?

Answer: Yes

Has Italmassamortgato established that all Italian Fascists were at all times racist? No.

Quote:

Proof-The set up the "Maniofesto Della Razza"

That means the RACIAL LAWS.

Now, having "NO NEED" of a racist component in the Ideology means nothing.

Italmassamortgato's original thesis was that racism is a sine qua non of fascism. I have pointed out and Kuvasz has pointed out that racism is not a necessary component of Italian fascism. I had thought to, but Kuvasz actually did point out that the decree to which Italmassamortgato refers was promulgated sixteen years after Mussolini began the fascist movement. Therefore, this is all very germane to the question of whether or not racism is a necessary component of fascism. Italmassamortgato wrote: "The list is bogus. It does not have one critical definition. Racism. How could the author have missed that? That is the primal sin from which all others flow." Apart from the atrocious writing, obfuscating the idiotic premise, it is clear that Italmassamortgato asserts that fascism cannot exist without first having a racist underpinning. I take it, therefore, that Italmassamortgato is implying that from 1922 to 1938, Italian fascism was stillborn--lacking any evidence of the essential component of racism.

Quote:

The Fascists under Mussolini established THE MANIFESTO DELLA RAZZA and if Setanta and Kuvasz wish to say that is not a racist document I guess that they can.

But they should try to read it first!!!!!

Yes, i've noticed the propensity of Italmassamortgato to virtually shout when his arguments fall apart, as inevitably they will. This is a strawman of a type for which Italmassamortgato ought to rightfully be embarrassed. It is so blatant. At no time have i, nor has Kuvasz, asserted that the document in question is not racist. You don't even get a "nice try" for horseshit like that . . .

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Setanta wrote:

I have pointed out and Kuvasz has pointed out that racism is not a necessary component of Italian fascism.

Indeed. The Italian racialist laws were promulgated only after pressure was brought to bear by Hitler, and only after Mussolini had fully acceded to the Rome-Berlin axis after the Anschluss. Even after enacting the laws discriminating against the Jews, the Italian Fascists were never very enthusiastic anti-Semites, primarily because there just weren't that many Jews in Italy against whom to discriminate, and those few were more likely to have been fully assimilated into Italian society. Fascistic or proto-fascist groups in other countries, especially in central and eastern Europe, were far more likely to include a racialist component in their programs, but racism alone was not a necessary component of fascist ideology. Rather, the notion of national community (or Volksgemeinschaft) and manner of defining it by reference to the "other" (very often, but not always, some internal minority group) played a larger role than anti-Semitism in fascism as an international phenomenon.

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I believe it is a correct statement that General Aloannis Metaxas of Greece, who founded a facist dictatorship in response to a percieved threat from the communists managed to accomplish said end without any racist component. I know of no racist component in Franco's Falange. I have already pointed out that Admiral Miklos Horthy of Hungary would not cooperate with German attempts to deport Jews from Hungary, and . . .

Wikipedia wrote:

In January 1942, by the order of some disloyal officers (lieutenant-general Ferenc Feketehalmy-Czeidner, major-general József Grassy, colonel László Deák and gendarmarie-captain Márton Zöldy) numerous Serb and Jewish civilians were brutally murdered in the Backa region of Vojvodina, and their corpses were thrown into the rivers Danube and Tisa. When Horthy ordered the investigation, the officers responsible for action fled to Nazi Germany and only returned after the German Nazi regime occupied Hungary in 1944.

I know that it is fashionable for conservatives at this site to now ridicule Wikipedia, but this information is available elsewhere--this was simply the most succinct form which was readily available.

Not only is racism not necessarily a component of fascism, Italmassamortgato's contention that it is: ". . . the primal sin from which all others flow."--is ludicrously absurd.

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Setanta wrote:

I have already pointed out that Admiral Miklos Horthy of Hungary would not cooperate with German attempts to deport Jews from Hungary, and . . .

Wikipedia wrote:
In January 1942, by the order of some disloyal officers (lieutenant-general Ferenc Feketehalmy-Czeidner, major-general József Grassy, colonel László Deák and gendarmarie-captain Márton Zöldy) numerous Serb and Jewish civilians were brutally murdered in the Backa region of Vojvodina, and their corpses were thrown into the rivers Danube and Tisa. When Horthy ordered the investigation, the officers responsible for action fled to Nazi Germany and only returned after the German Nazi regime occupied Hungary in 1944.

The only problem with this analysis is that Horthy was not a fascist -- not by a long shot. Indeed, in 1944, when Hitler finally grew tired of Horthy and toppled his regime, the Germans installed Ferenc Szalasi, who definitely was a fascist. I would also add that Metaxas was, at most, a proto-fascist (his movement lacked the kind of pervasive party-state integration that is a hallmark of totalitarian governments).

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I'd agree with that analysis, Joe, although by the description of others of their contemporaries, both Horthy and Metaxas were considered to be fascists. My point was soley that by no description of fascists can one reasonably make a blanket statement that racism is an a priori requisite of fascism . . .

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Setanta wrote:

I'd agree with that analysis, Joe, although by the description of others of their contemporaries, both Horthy and Metaxas were considered to be fascists. My point was soley that by no description of fascists can one reasonably make a blanket statement that racism is an a priori requisite of fascism . . .

With that I concur.

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Snood:

Tartarin asked me to pass this link on to you.

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Setanta wrote:

Admiral Hrothy, the Hungarian hero of the Austro-Hungarian navy who made himself the dictator of Hungary after the Great War saw the advantages of incorporating Italian facism into his political rhetoric and for use as a cosmetic program, and he, too, resisted all German efforts to deport Jews.

Horthy may indeed have incorporated elements of fascist rhetorics, increasingly so as the thirties progressed, but he was no fascist himself, as you already imply. That however means that the presence or absence of racism in his politics also says little about the character of fascism. On another count, he did not resist "all German efforts to deport Jews". He allowed all the Jews from outside Budapest to be deported, insisting/succeeding [ambivalence intended] only to save the ones inside the capital as long as he reigned.

Horthy incorporated elements of the fascist agenda mostly out of opportunism. His semi-dictatorial regime was an arch-conservative and traditionalist one, which however still had to watch its right-wing flank, especially once the ever more powerful fascist neighbours spurred on an increasingly active fascist movement at home as well. Lending elements of fascist rhetorics and keeping a friendly line towards the fascist states helped him to keep his authentically fascist competitors at bay for a long time, stealing their thunder and deriving them from external support. However, he was not a believer himself (how could he be, since fascists wanted to change everything, and he wanted things to change as little as possible), and up until Count Teleki's suicide in 1941, he incorporated moderate-liberal allies in his ruling coalition of interests as well.

The incorporation of a degree of fascist rhetorics wasn't too much of a stretch for the Horthyites, since the culture of Hungarian noblemen that they so passionately defended itself incorporated virulent anti-semitism. But Horthy personally does not seem to have been so affected, hence how (whether out of pragmatic or humanitarian motives) he kept the Budapest Jews out of the Nazi's hands. Many of them fell victim to murderous rage after all though once the Horthy regime was itself ousted in 1944, and the authentically fascist Arrow Cruisers took over.

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Oh great. I finish typing and see that Joe already made my point more succinctly while I was at it (or rather, while I was distracted from typing midway through the post).

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"Feel don't think" -Roberto Mussolini

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Here is what I read:

"Italian fascism had absolutely no need for a racist component in its ideology"

and

"Anti-Semitism was not a vital functional part of the Corporatist and Syndicalitist Ideologies from which Fascism grew"

How about:

"The Constitution of the United States did not, in any way, include slavery as a component."

"Slavery was not a functional part of the Ideology from which Democracy grew"

Are Ideologies fixed forever at their inception or do they grow?

The Manifesto of Racists Scientists published in 1938 makes it clear that, according to one of the Ideologues, Achille Starace, ( this is from a very poor translation) "the fascismo makes from sixteen years one practially political racist who consists- through the action of the institutions of the Regimen in realizing a continuous quantative and qualitative improvement of the race"

Setanta also told us that "Snood got the list( of the characteristics of Fascism) from Rense a well know UFO crackpot"

Now the list is inviolable?

But, Setanta does not know why I said that the list was bogus since it did not include "racism".

Is he not aware that the well known legal scholar, Kimberley Crenshaw has asserted that :
"racism is the central ideological underpinning of American Society"

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Re: The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism

snood wrote:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism (flags, mottos, slogans, everywhere all the time)

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights (human rights can be ignored because of "need")

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

4. Supremacy of the Military (even to the neglect of widespread domestic problems)

5. Rampant Sexism

6. Controlled Mass Media

7. Obsession With National Security

8. Religion and government are Intertwined (the most common religion is used to as a tool to manipulate public opinion)

9. Corporate power is protected

10. Labor power is suppressed

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

12. Obsession with crime and punishment

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption (governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other

14. Fraudulent Elections (sham elections, smear campaigns, legislation to control districts, media manipulation)

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

...FASCINATING....

Have to agree with you Snood. I just posted a thread 'Rethinking fascism-freedom. You might want to check it out. Thanks for the interesting 14 points.......a bit scary. Your post, I see from posts further down, is being discredited as they don't think the sources are credible. Perhaps they will think a lawyer who is writing a book more credible? Anyway, appreciate it if you take a look at the thread I mentioned!

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Amigo wrote:

I think some of our fellow Americans have ideas of a more supple friendlier kind of fascism. If you throw a frog into boiling water he'll jump out but if you throw him into cool water and boil him slowly you can kill. Can you feel the temperature rising?

What do you think set?

:wink: right on, amigo. 'Friendly fascism' is what's going on in America. There is another thread with an article (pretty good one too) about fascism - that I just posted......(not trying to divert from yours, snood).

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The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism

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