The Defense of Christmas

Thanks, Coastal,

Sure....if username wants to boycott me, have at it. I don't have a business, but I suppose he could boycott my next yard sale.

And I truly hope he lives up to his threat to "decommercialize" Christmas...

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I don't know about where you live, but where I do any big retailer like Target is going to get large numbers of shoppers who are, just thinking of the most obvious, going to be Jewish, Buddhist, or Moslem, and even quite possibly Haitian Candomble. And most of the time you'll have no idea which is which, or who's Christian (or what variety of Christian, even, since there are several which have serious problems with Christmas as it is celebrated). Saying "Merry Christmas" is going to be, at best, irrelevant to them, and quite possibly offensive. I suspect a number of Christians, very likely some of you guys tho maybe not, would be offended if a major store told its clerks it had to wish you "Have a pleasant day, inshallah". Think about the shoe being on the other foot, and how you'd feel. I really think with a proposed boycott you're contributing to a breakdown in the civility which allows many groups of people with different viewpoints to function smoothly together.

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Username - I think you are misunderstanding what many of us are saying. It is not that we agree that Happy Holidays should replace Merry Christmas or not, it is the fact that you can boycott for whatever reason you want whether it is inane or not. I can fully understand why Target is doing what it is and have no issue with as most Christians do not. It is the few extreme ones that want to push their holiday and beliefs on others.

If we were not to allow boycotting because not the entire country believes in it, then we forgo our basic freedoms. Look at this way, if you boycott because of a really stupid or completely biased reason, they you look insane and then hold little in the way of respect. Do you really think that this small group of Christians are going to cause a huge commotion? Most will simply ignore them and make fun of them.

Quite honestly few things offend me so if you were to say inshallah - I would probably laugh and ask what the heck it meant. I do get offended, however, when some one makes blanket statements about a specific group whether I am member of that group or not.

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No, if a Muslim clerk at the cash register said "Have a nice day, inshallah" I wouldn't be offended. I'd smile, wish her a Merry Christmas and go on my way.

Why would I be offended? Do you think she would be offended by my response?

To be perfectly honest, I think there are very few that would be offended, and those few should be ignored rather than bouncing between extremes of all Christian (or some other religion) and all secular.

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Sure, you can boycott. And if someone can find an economic pressure point to use on you because of that boycott, they can do that too, to try to bring you to your knees and make you see reason, and someone can boycott them because they're boycotting you because you're boycotting whoever it is you're boycotting, and so on ad infinitum.
And there are companies I don't buy from because of their political and/or religious views, and their attempts to spread those views.

But I have a hard time reading silkshok's post as saying anything other than call boycott because the store does something neutral rather than actively supporting his/her own particular religion. And that I think is destructive of social order.

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I agree that the boycott is inane, but we can't limit the rights of one group, just because it may be causing some hurt feelings. And quite honestly I highly doubt that this small boycott is going to cause any break down in the social order.

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username wrote:

But I have a hard time reading silkshok's post as saying anything other than call boycott because the store does something neutral rather than actively supporting his/her own particular religion. And that I think is destructive of social order.

Then I think you are reading more into slkshok's post than what is there.

Personally, I couldn't care less how I am greeted at any particular store. A clerk saying merry Christmas, or happy holidays or whatever is of little concern to me. I'll say merry Christmas, and if they say happy kwanza back to me, that's fine. (Just for the record, I'm a very faithful Christian)

But if some group wants to boycott a store because of the way they greet their customers, that's their right to do so. Big deal. Let it go already. It's no different than taking offense to a store selling guns and having a group boycott them to try to get them to stop. Go for it.

Gosh, now I'm rambling on and on. Gotta stop this now and go shopping at Old Navy......oh wait, no, I forgot, I'm boycotting them. I guess it's off to Kohl's. :wink:

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username wrote:

But I have a hard time reading silkshok's post as saying anything other than call boycott because the store does something neutral rather than actively supporting his/her own particular religion. And that I think is destructive of social order.

First, I didn't call for boycott, but as Linkat has mentioned, just argued for the proposition that folks can boycott for any reason they want.

However, I'm not sure I see Target's position as neutral. It's like taking the traditions of Christmas (e.g. gift-giving) and intentionally ignoring the Christian roots. Somehow almost seems like plagiarism of a kind.

Really, though, I've already stated my bottom line... I think there are very few that would be offended, and those few should be ignored by stores like Target rather than bouncing between extremes of all Christian (or some other religion) and all secular.

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So it's all right to offend others as long as you're not the one offended, silk?

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Give it up Slkshock. Username does not seem to be able to comprehend what you keep writing.

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edgarblythe wrote:

Screw Falwel and anybody who would halt this day. I am an atheist, and I celebrate Christmas as a favorite day of the year.

Just curious - what is it you like about this day, edgar, and when did you start calling it a favorite day?

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Hell, if ya ask me, its long since time we cut all this nonsense and put Mithras back into the Saturnalia. After all - that IS the original Reason for the Season, so far as regards Western culture.

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username wrote:

So it's all right to offend others as long as you're not the one offended, silk?

Noooo, I didn't say that Rolling Eyes

Do you really think its possible to not offend anybody? I would argue that taking a position, any position, will offend someone...perhaps only one single person in this world, but there is somebody somewhere that will be offended. But so what? Why take great pains to not offend...wouldn't it be better just to not take offense?

Coastal, if I've lost username on my earlier posts, I've no doubt that this one will really throw him/her for a tizzy....but I couldn't help myself.

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no, you haven't lost me--we just have points of disagreement, which is something else entirely. And hypothesising that somewhere somehow might be offended is different than knowing definitely something can offend or hurt.

Does kinda boil down to the Golden Rule. And Christians do (or should) know about that.

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username wrote:

no, you haven't lost me--we just have points of disagreement, which is something else entirely. And hypothesising that somewhere somehow might be offended is different than knowing definitely something can offend or hurt.

Does kinda boil down to the Golden Rule. And Christians do (or should) know about that.

Well you've lost me...Are you now arguing that saying "Merry Christmas" or having signs in a store saying the same are intentionally meant to offend or hurt?

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timberlandko wrote:

username wrote:
... we can probably figure out a way to write off the entire month of December and the first week of January to living very very large.
Toss in Martin Luther King, Mardi Gras, St. Valentine, a couple dead presidents, and we can pretty well write off December, January, and February! In that case, for efficiency's sake, we might as well knock of for Thanksgiving and stay out 'til the Easter thing is over. I'm starting to like this idea.

See, I told you my idea has promise. With just a little work, we can flake off the whole year.

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slkshock7 wrote:

Stevepax wrote:
The Christians can do anything they want as long as they don't do it to my children. If they want to, they can construct a full scale nativity scene on their roof. Have at it. Just keep it on their property. Sing praises in church, not in my kids school. Let them keep their celebration to themselves as it fits them. and don't insist that I celebrate it with them. I don't make them celebrate my faith.

Most of all, don't boycott my store because I don't choose to celebrate a faith which isn't my own.

Stevepax,

I'm with Linkat on this one. I understand your right to say "Happy Holidays" in your store, as well, for that matter as Target's decision to do the same.

What I don't understand is why you would then reject my right to boycott Target or your store, based on that decision? You have no legal right to my business and I can choose to visit your store or not based on price, location, business practices, or because you refuse to say "Merry Christmas".

That was probably said wrong then. By all means, boycott your little heart out. You're right. I don't by any means have a "right" to your business at all. Boycotting is ducky, just don't sue me for not practicing your religion.

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slkshock7 wrote:

However, I'm not sure I see Target's position as neutral. It's like taking the traditions of Christmas (e.g. gift-giving) and intentionally ignoring the Christian roots. Somehow almost seems like plagiarism of a kind.

That would be a lovely argument - if the traditions actually had Christian roots.

Confused

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Christmas is one time when many active church goers feel compelled to object to active shoppers and non-church goers and corporate policies all in the name of celebrating the birth of the Prince of Peace.

Personally, I try to stick with "Love one another" all year round. I grant you, this is difficult, but then I'm a pagan. Living that commandment is undoubtedly easier for Christians.

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Noddy, you once again reminded me why I treasure you and your posts.

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The Defense of Christmas

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