The Oldest Known Christian Church in the Middle East?

From a historical point of view, I find the whole thing fascinating. That mosaic is gorgeous. I don't think that it really matters if it was the earliest church or not. IMO it is a very important archeological find.

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dys,

I think it is very relevant. If this church is as old as they think it is, Christianity was banned. It would still be another 100 years before Christians were really free to worship in the open.

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Phoenix Wrote:

Quote:

From a historical point of view, I find the whole thing fascinating. That mosaic is gorgeous. I don't think that it really matters if it was the earliest church or not. IMO it is a very important archeological find.

I am curious. Why don't you think it really matters if it was the earliest church or not?

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Momma- Maybe I did not state my thoughts correctly. At this point in time, if it can be determined that that particular find is the earliest on record, that still does not mean that it was the earliest church. It simply means that it is the earliest church of which we have knowledge at this time.

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Intrepid wrote:

The fish significance is interesting. It is said that when 2 Christians met and did not know each other, one would draw an arch in the sand. If the other drew the opposing arch....to make a fish.... then they knew that they were in the presence of another Christian. I don't know for sure that it is true, but it makes sense and is a good story.

That's the common belief, the symbol is called an 'Ichthus'.

\Ich"thus\, n. [Gr. ?.] In early Christian and eccesiastical art, an emblematic fish, or the Greek word for fish

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So anyway, this brings to my mind a simple question, was jesus a jew or a christian? In other words, when did "christianity happen, was it someting jesus said/proclaimed or did it happen later like from maybe Paul/Saul.

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The church was, and still is at least in Protestant Christianity, not a building but the congregation of believers. That is why Congregationalist and Quakers in New England had meeting houses not churches. Those white buildings on New England greens were public halls built with public monies. The structure of Christianity changed in the fourth century when it became the official "established' religion of the Roman Empire. At that point the government built official worshiping places similar to pagan temples.A number of these building were built at points that were significant in Christian beliefs especially to attract the pilgrim (ie tourist) trade. So they had a financial as well as ritual function. This church was built at Amageddon which would fit with that pattern. Before that, it is my understanding, Christians met in private homes or rented public halls.

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Momma Angel wrote:

dys,

I think it is very relevant. If this church is as old as they think it is, Christianity was banned. It would still be another 100 years before Christians were really free to worship in the open.

You keep repeating this, and it is a completely false statement. Constantine "legalized" christianity in the 4th century--in defeating Licinius in 314 CE, Constantine ended the reign of Diocletian's persecutors of christians. The peace held for eight years, and then Licinius began attacking christians again. Constantine defeated Licinius in 324, and definitively ended the persecution of christians. Licinius attempted to raise a new army and persecutie christians once more, but failed and was executed in 325 CE.

You have a bad habit of making statements about early christianity which are completely without merit and have no historical basis.

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Setanta wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
dys,

I think it is very relevant. If this church is as old as they think it is, Christianity was banned. It would still be another 100 years before Christians were really free to worship in the open.

You keep repeating this, and it is a completely false statement. Constantine "legalized" christianity in the 4th century--in defeating Licinius in 314 CE, Constantine ended the reign of Diocletian's persecutors of christians. The peace held for eight years, and then Licinius began attacking christians again. Constantine defeated Licinius in 324, and definitively ended the persecution of christians. Licinius attempted to raise a new army and persecutie christians once more, but failed and was executed in 325 CE.

You have a bad habit of making statements about early christianity which are completely without merit and have no historical basis.

Well, ok. Seems to me there is a bit of a double standard or something going on. It's ok for one side to repeat what is either said on a TV show or in a news article and the other side should accept it.

That is all I am doing here. I am just repeating what was said in the news. If you will read my post more thoroughly, you will also see that I said this was still under investigation and nothing definitive has been concluded as of yet.

And Set, I really find it a bit offensive that someone that rails against Christian beliefs the way that you do to tell a praciting Christian, or anyone else for that matter, that what they state has no merit about Christianity, early or otherwise.

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Hallejuja - this is something about HISTORY, ARCHOLOGY, Mama Angel, it has nothing to do with beliefs, religion ... and tourism I may add re the Isarael tourist board .... at first place.

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Well yeah MA you have a point there re Set, If he was just as polite and reverential towards christians as I am there wouldn't be a problem. Personality disorder I figure.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Hallejuja - this is something about HISTORY, ARCHOLOGY, Mama Angel, it has nothing to do with beliefs, religion ... and tourism I may add re the Isarael tourist board .... at first place.

The Christian whiners at this site, who constantly complain about criticism about their beliefs and their crackpot versions of history should take note of what Walter has written here. It is always a practice of mine to criticize distortions of history, whether they refer to religion or not. I get sick and tired of the special pleading that the christians do for their imaginary friend superstitions, and see no reason why they should be exempt from the criticism which are leveled at anyone else at this site for imprecision--something which happens to me when i'm not careful. Get over it.

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Actually, I'm a member of the Westphalian Christian Archaeological Society (although I never studied this subject, had only classes in classical ['normal'] archaelogy [sorry for the typo above!].

But even Christian archaeology has at the first place nothing to do with religion but only shows where focused at (namely at the "material relicts of Christianity").

I think, this is quite a superb find - similar to that one, which was made nearly 40 years ago, when they found in my native town a Franconian pottery from pre 700 - no-one thought until that date, the Franconians had settled so far east about that period.

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I find it an interesting site, as well. The dedication by an imperial officer strongly suggests that it was an open, officially sanctioned church, possibly one of the earliest.

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Walter,

It HAS something to do with Christianity! I don't expect everyone to accept that. I believe there are some that if God Himself came down and told them who He was, they would still deny Him.

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I nearly wrote the opposite word of heaven now.

Out here.

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Suppose the Ark of the Covenant was recovered? Do you suppose that would just have something to do with archeology or with Christianity?

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I'm standing momentarily at the end of that flat disc, which is known as earth: I'm considering to jump ....

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This could really be an interesting discussion for people interested in history and archaeology - if it could be moved to a more appropriate forum.

Has anyone asked the mods to move it?

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ehbeth,

But, to me, a Christian, it has also to do with spirituality and religion. I realize everyone does not see it that way.

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The Oldest Known Christian Church in the Middle East?

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