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Anti- Intellectualism in American Life

 
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:16 pm
blatham wrote:
francis
I was entirely of good cheer in my response.


I didn't misunderstood you, Blatham. I even smiled at the trapper anecdote...but please dont mistreat my friend Dys...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:21 pm
He looks even more like Ichabod Crane than I do, francis. And if god has found reason to curse him to that degree, who am I to start pushing in the opposite direction?
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Francis
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:26 pm
Because you respect the opinion of god now, Blatham?
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blatham
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:28 pm
Yes, I began last Tuesday. So far, the dividends aren't impressive. I'll give him another week.
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Francis
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:32 pm
Nice of you!
But no more than that. If your dividends dont go up, sell your shares...
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blatham
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:40 pm
Yes. There are a few folks here who will give me a pretty penny for them too. My only fear is some goddamn Lutheran will drive a nail through the deal before I have cash in hand.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:43 pm
A Catholic wouldn't buy. He thinks he has has preferred shares.
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blatham
 
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Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 04:22 pm
LOL. Yeah, I knew that.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 09:56 am
How would Hofstadter classify Eric Hoffer, the Longshoreman Philosopher, who planted his feet in both camps?

BBB
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blatham
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 11:40 am
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
How would Hofstadter classify Eric Hoffer, the Longshoreman Philosopher, who planted his feet in both camps?

BBB


I suspect he would have liked the fellow a lot. Hofstadter wasn't really interested in isolating people or even professions into one "camp" or another, not even in thinking in terms like that.
Quote:
Business men and labor leaders may have views of the intellectual class which are surprisingly similar. Again, progressive education has had its own strong anti-intellectual element...

To be confronted with a simple and unqualified evil is no doubt a kind of luxury; but such is not the case here; and if anti-intellectualism has become, as I believe it has, a broadly diffused quality in our civilization, it has become so becausee it has often been linked to good, or at least dfensible causes. It first got is strong grip on our ways of thinking because it was fostered by an evangelical religion that also purveyed many humane and democratic sentiments. It made its way into our politics because it became associated with our passion for equality. It has become formidable in our education partly because our educational beliefs are evangelically egalitarian.


Or take this passage on the subject of farming. Hoffer, a dock worker by profession, wouldn't be properly associated with the attitude found here...
Quote:
Even the open-minded farmer was likely to be ignorant of the principles of plant and animal breeding, of plant nutrition, of sound tillage, of soil chemistry. Many farmers were sunk in the superstitions of moon-farming - sowing, reaping, and mowing in accordance with the phases of the moon. Their practices were wasteful and depletive. For the edducative effots of the reformers they had the disdain of the "practical" man for the theorist expressed in the contemptuous term book farming. "the men who are farmers by book are no farmers for me, " said one. "Give me the man who prefers his hands to books..."
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 11:45 am
Blatham
Blatham, I have tremendous respect for Eric Hoffer. Some of his wisdom:

The poor on the borderline of starvation live purposeful lives. To be engaged in a desperate struggle for food and shelter is to be wholly free from a sense of futility.

The leader has to be practical and a realist, yet must talk the language of the visionary and the idealist.

In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.

One might equate growing up with a mistrust of words. A mature person trusts his eyes more than his ears. Irrationality often manifests itself in upholding the word against the evidence of the eyes. Children, savages and true believers remember far less what they have seen than what they have heard.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 11:49 am
I disagree. I suspedct Hoffer would have been seriously put off by the elitism and narrow-minded arrogance evident in Hofstadter's worldview -- as amply indicated in the quotes that Blatham posted above.

Hoffewr, who was very interested in the practical business of living (and making a name for himself) wouldn't have met Hofstadter's definition of an intellectual anyway,
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 12:05 pm
BBB
The link between ideas and action is rarely direct. There is almost always an intermediate step in which the idea is overcome. De Tocqueville points out that it is at times when passions start to govern human affairs that ideas are most obviously translated into political action. The translation of ideas into action is usually in the hands of people least likely to follow rational motives. Hence, it is that action is often the nemesis of ideas, and sometimes of the men who formulate them. One of the marks of the truly vigorous society is the ability to dispense with passion as a midwife of action - the ability to pass directly from thought to action.

---Eric Hoffer
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blatham
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 04:08 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I disagree. I suspedct Hoffer would have been seriously put off by the elitism and narrow-minded arrogance evident in Hofstadter's worldview -- as amply indicated in the quotes that Blatham posted above.

Hoffewr, who was very interested in the practical business of living (and making a name for himself) wouldn't have met Hofstadter's definition of an intellectual anyway,


george

You probably ought to rethink whether you give something away if you so consistently use the term 'intellectual' (and thus, 'intellect') as, and only as, an epithet.

Clearly, Hoffer enjoyed the 'life of the mind' and was drawn to pondering any number of theoretical and abstract matters. His observation of one particular phenomenon (an identifier, in fact) of the 'true believer' was "the thought-terminating cliche" (eg. "god works in mysterious ways") is a brilliant insight that he did not arrive at other than through the exercise of his brilliant abstract intellectual capabilities.

If you wish to define "intellectual" only as a negative then I don't know where you'll arrive other than back at your original prejudice.

What term would you use to refer to that particular farmer quoted by Hofstadter, who didn't think that anyone who used books to help him grow crops wasn't a real farmer?
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blatham
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 04:16 pm
actually, george, let me put this question to you.

Are there any good intellectuals? If so, what differentiates them from bad intellectuals?
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Mortkat
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 04:29 pm
Again, it is clear that Blatham has not read or does not remember key points in Hoffer as he has obviously forgotten what Hofstadter actually said about intellectuals.

The following sentences from Hoffer identify, for me, individuals like Blatham.

quote

"P. 127- Hoffer- The True Believer"

It is easy to see how thye faultfinding man of words, by persistent ridicule and denunciation, shakes prevailing beliefs and loyalties, and familiarizes the masses with the idea of change, What is not so obvious is the process by which the DISCREDITING OF EXISTING BELIEFS AND INSTITUTIONS MAKES POSSIBLE THE RISE OF A NEW FANATICAL FAITH.

end of quote

I suspect the rise of relativism rooted in Atheism could be indentified as the rise of a new fanatical faith which discredits existing beliefs.
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blatham
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 05:34 pm
Sorry. The 'thought terminating cliche' idea was from Lifton, not Hoffer.
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Mortkat
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 05:48 pm
Poor Blatham. He wiggles and squirms to avoid the fact of what he said--
Quote:
His ( Hoffer) observation of one particular phenomenon ( an identifier, in fact) of the true believer was the "thought terminating cliche"...

The antecendent "His" clearly links "thought terminating cliche" to Hoffer. Now, we hear that the "thought terminating cliche" was from Lifton.


A few more egregious mistakes like that and we will be forced to write Blatham off as insufficiently grounded in research to be trusted when he parades his always "apparently erudite" ideas.
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dyslexia
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 07:09 pm
fortunately we can write of gatos as among the missing and presumed dead.
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2005 07:11 pm
blatham wrote:
actually, george, let me put this question to you.

Are there any good intellectuals? If so, what differentiates them from bad intellectuals?


A fair question, and one, for which, based on my previous comments, I owe Blatham an answer .

Using Hofstadter's definition of the term (or even a less restrictive one) I would assert that there are both good ones and bad, and their relative numbers depend on excactly what you mean by good or bad. I infer that Hofstadter would (or could) judge them as good or bad based on how well they fulfilled his definition of the required essential characteristics, i.e. a dedication to the life of the mind and critical thought accompanyed by piety and playfulness with respect to ideas themselves.

Others might define intellectuals as good or bad based on the degree to which they continue to test their assumptions, ideas and conclusions against facts as they unfold; the balance (or lack of it) that accompanies the actions they take or urge other to take in fulfilling these ideas; and the morality (or humanity if you prefer) that limits their actions in support of their ideas; and finally the logical/intellectual merit of the ideas they produce. I suppose I would use these criteria for my own selection.

I don't mean to overplay the distinction I made with respect to Hoffer, who I presume we all would consider to have been an intellectual. Perhaps Hofstadter would have considered him such as well as well - however one must recognize the very practical "folkish" qualities that Hoffer himself emphasized in his own work and persona and the degree to which these qualities differ from the more disciplined, structured and formally trained qualities that Hofstadter repeatedly emphasized and carefully distinguished from mere folk or practical wisdom.
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