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Anti- Intellectualism in American Life

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:48 pm
George-

I consider serious war to be virtually impossible now.There is an epochal difference between politicians sending millions to their death and they themselves being burned to a crisp within a few hours of the start gun.

As far as-
I do recognize the dilemma facing the UK in the post empire period. My advice would be to stick to a policy that has worked well since the 17th century/ [/quote]

I'm sure we will until such times as we won't.
Quote:


PS Is there something wrong with this quote thingy?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 02:53 pm
spendius wrote:
...But he does tell some interesting anecdotes and by selective use of quotations brings a degree of discredit on creationism by associating it with the most opportunistic charlatans who presumably could no longer sell snake oil.In fact it is possible,using other quotations,to associate creationism with the highest flights of sublimity the human mind has proved capable of.


I wouldn't lay the blame for that selectivity and the failure to detect the sublime alternative possibility entirely on Hofstadter -- Just take a look at the Creationism thread on A2K. An interesting question here concerning the potential for the sublime in the understanding of the inarticulate and unlettered, so often prejudged by self-appointed intellectuals.. I have encountered likely examples of both charlastinism (or acceptance of it) and sublime understanding among them.

I don't know Flaubert as do you - I have so far preferred Stendahl, Balzac and Maupassant. Have I missed something unique?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 03:01 pm
spendius wrote:


I consider serious war to be virtually impossible now.There is an epochal difference between politicians sending millions to their death and they themselves being burned to a crisp within a few hours of the start gun.


Sadly, I think you are wrong here. The "new" risk (to leaders) you cite didn't prevent wars in earlier ages when it also operated.

I agree that there are ihibiting factors here that will give pause to the richest and most entangled states in dealing with each other However there are other actors entering the stage with less to lose (or more to gain), and fear can change the thinking of all in this game.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:13 pm
George wrote-

Quote:
I don't know Flaubert as do you - I have so far preferred Stendahl, Balzac and Maupassant. Have I missed something unique?


Seemingly.But don't get me wrong.I love Stendhal too.I read Maupassant when in short pants.The story of the moth in the lamp enthralled me.And I have laughed at Balzac many,many times.On being sentenced to exile on a desert island with only one book I would try to glue together Lucien,Salammbo,The Complete Works.My Life and Loves,Rabelais,Ayesha and Opus Pistorum.And if I can have a record it would be The Complete Dylan Bootlegs and Mahler's Song of the Earth.

Have you read De L'Amour?

On the war thing-their wife and kids get burned to a crisp as well.Sorry-I forgot to mention that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2005 02:03 am
spendius wrote:
Have you read De L'Amour? .


Stendhal? Yes - while I was at the Naval Academy, also a near contemporary piece of his - Lamiel. Both very characteristic.

Too many books to make a compact choice. For music all I'd want is my new i pod -- everything there from Debussy, Bizet, Ibert, Granados, Rimsky Korsakov, Borodin, Mendhelssohn, to Offenbach, Puccini, & Verdi, and to Hank Williams, Roy Orbison, Johnny Cash, Peggy Lee, Trio Los Panchos and the Chieftons.

Don't have a taste for Mahler.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2005 02:54 am
This is a most interesting post. Thank you, George ob1. When you were describing Hofstadter's complaint of "Anti-intellectualism" against the US Government because they did not hire more "intellectuals, I could not avoid thinking about Irving Kristol's description of "Intellectuals"

Kristol held that "intellectuals" have been typically posed against the order of things. Kristol says they were opposed to "commercial activity" because it threatened to be a very boring activity.

He also describes "Intellectuals" as those who feel themselves to be very important people and who, consequently are outraged when the society they live in merely tolerates them.

Kristol believes that "intellectuals" are convinced that any civilization that is shaped by market transactions will reflect only the appetites and preferences of COMMON men and women. They simply do not have the good taste and sensiblities of the "elite"

If Hofstadter's complaint has its sources in Kristol's description of the "intellectual" then his book, which I read many years ago, may be viewed as Hofstadter's Complaint" or "The Intellectual's pique"
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Nov, 2005 02:02 pm
Thanks for the comments.

I don't want to unfairly judge Hofsradter because he has written an interesting book, which I believe does accurately and insightfully describe, in an historical and social context, certain salient features of American life and culture.

My faults relate to the rather sweeping general conclusions he makes regarding these observations, and the particular logical construct in which he imbeds them (very much related to Kristol's observations as you cited them.) He takes very arguable points as necessarily true, including the propositions that political and social conservatives cannot possibly be intellectuals, and that the activity of intellectuals (as he narrowly defines them) promises to significantly improve the experience of life for the great mass of people.

I recall wonderful passages in Gibbon's history of the Roman Empire, in which he speculates that nowhere in the annals of human history was the overall condition of humanity (in the Western World) as good as it was under the reigns of the two Antonines (Emperors). One may not agree with Gibbon on this point, but the case he made for it in the late 18th century is interesting reading today. (all from Chapter 3)

Quote:
"If a man were called to fix the period in the history of the world, during which the condition of the human race was most happy and prosperous, he would, without hesitation, name that which elapsed from the death of Domitian to the accession of Commodus. ...

The two Antonines (for it is of them that we are now speaking) governed the Roman world forty-two years, with the same invariable spirit of wisdom and virtue. ... Their united reigns are possibly the only period of history in which the happiness of a great people was the sole object of government. ...

Antoninus diffused order and tranquility over the greatest part of the earth. His reign is marked by the rare advantage of furnishing very few materials for history; which is, indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind. ...

The virtue of Marcus Aurelius Antoninus was of a severer and more laborious kind. It was the well-earned harvest of many a learned conference, of many a patient lecture, and many a midnight lucubration. … he embraced the rigid system of the Stoics, which taught him to submit his body to his mind, his passions to his reason; to consider virtue as the only good, vice as the only evil, all things external as things indifferent."


It is difficult to consider the history of the Modern Age, even with the contributions of its self-appointed "intellectuals (as Hofstadter defines them), as a significant improvement over this system of these eminently practical Romans.

It is true that Gibbon took a particularly skeptical view of all religion (it was superstition in his view), and that most of his references in this regard were to Christianity - then in it's rather more conventional and non-fundamentalist forms. He was left though with the philosopher's questions as to how existence came about. However, it is rather difficult to find daylight between Hofstadter's expressed admiration (in the case of the Massachusetts Puritans) or at least indifference to the established institutions of Christianity and his distain for the "fundamentalists" who, in his view took precedence in this country after the Great Awakening of the 18th century.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 07:49 am
OK, I've been avoiding responding to your thread here george because I'm going to have to do a lot of typing and my secretary has run off with a low-browed and heavy-loafered practical man. His name is Ivan or Biff or Scooter or Lunk. He has a fondness for brown muscle-shirts and he has never read Stendahl or Flaubert and thinks anyone who has read them is probably a Euro-Frenchie-lover. And he could kick the **** out of that effeminate college weenie Kristol in three seconds flat.

The reason I have to do a lot of typing is because you didn't do it. Asshole.

I am, let me say right off the bat, absolutely thrilled that you've read the book and that you enjoyed it as much as you have. Good on ya, old chum. I can now confess that there was no heart attack and I'm smoking as I write. If ends don't justify means, then what the hell might?

There was one danger in georgeob taking on this book and its thesis. Namely, that he might enter in with a thesis of his own which could have the consequence of coloring his reading. And you are guilty. Asshole.

You forward a notion of Hofstadter's "definition" of anti-intellectualism which does not adequately reflect the ambiguity in his sense of this phenomenon. You've ommitted almost all of the introductory material wherein he takes up "what I don't mean by the term" and those pages constitute the greatest component of the introduction.

As a consequence, someone reading your posts above might come away with the notion that Flaubert or Stendahl or georgeob or spendie or Bill Kristol are outside of what Hofstadter means by "intellectual". And such a notion would be comparable to the misapprehension that bridge trolls and Margaret Thatcher are untwinlike.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 07:50 am
the censored word above was assshole less an s
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 08:08 am
Quote:
He also describes "Intellectuals" as those who feel themselves to be very important people and who, consequently are outraged when the society they live in merely tolerates them.
That would describe 90% of the human race and certainly applies to Kristol.

Quote:
Kristol held that "intellectuals" have been typically posed against the order of things.
That describes everyone that has a political opinion.

A luddite would be an "intellectual" under most of the rest of the definition Kristol expounds.

This entire exercise seems to be to create a perjorative and then apply it to those you disagree with.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 09:33 am
an anti-intellectual is one who upon hearing "When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for a gun," and says "amen."

these sorts are not simply angry at those who appear smarter, or more knowledgable, or have different opinions then they, but that they are presented with the reality that they might be forced to think in a way outside that manner which brings them comfort about the world.

btw parados, over at TMP cafe i just got accused of being an anti-intellectual Luddite for riping a Princeton econ prof a new a$$hole for his essay critical of liberal stances on globalization. apparently, working for several years in a textile factoy doing hard physical labor before I metriculated with advanced degrees in chemistry tainted me with the odor of the sweaty masses.

go figure.

like I said in any earlier post: intellectuals? who are they.....paper, scissors, rock
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 09:36 am
an anti-intellectual is one who upon hearing "When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for a gun," and says "amen."

these sorts are not simply angry at those who appear smarter, or more knowledgable, or have different opinions then they, but that they are presented with the reality that they might be forced to think in a way outside that manner which brings them comfort about the world.

btw parados, over at TMP cafe i just got accused of being an anti-intellectual Luddite for riping a Princeton econ prof a new a$$hole for his essay critical of liberal stances on globalization. apparently, working for several years in a textile factoy doing hard physical labor before I metriculated with advanced degrees in chemistry tainted me with the odor of the sweaty masses.

go figure.

like I said in an earlier post: intellectuals? who are they.....paper, scissors, rock
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 10:02 am
An anti-intellectual is one who upon hearing "When I hear the word 'culture' I reach for a gun," and says "Amen."

These sorts are not simply angry at those who appear smarter, or more knowledgeable, or have different opinions then them, but that they are presented with the reality that they might be forced to think in a way outside that manner which brings them comfort about the world.

Btw Parados, over at TMP cafe I just got accused of being an anti-intellectual Luddite for ripping a Princeton econ prof a new a$$hole for his essay critical of liberal stances on globalization. Apparently, working for several years in a textile factory doing hard physical labor before I matriculated with advanced degrees in chemistry tainted me with the malodor of the sweaty masses.

Go figure.

Like I said in any earlier post: intellectuals? Who are they.....paper, scissors, and rock
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 12:01 pm
Well I'm off to a lunch meeting, but want to quickly acknowledge a##hole Blatham for his response.

Quick points

I did enjoy the book, and think that, taken as a descriptive essay on salient (but variable) elements of American culture it is a very good scholarly work. It is the sophistry that accompanies his conclusions and generalizations, and the lack of any comparative analysis to which I object. In short I object only to the very uses you yourself have made with respect to the work.

The definition of "intellectual" to which you object, along with the unfortunate statements regarding Eisenhower and Adali Stevenson were all taken from the very introductory material to which you refer. (I can do the quotes and typing later) H. dedicated several pages and repeated references to his narrow definition of "intellectual', and I reported them accurately. He refers repeatedly to "the life of the mind", "the love of ideas for their own sake", distinctions between mere practical application and real intellectual activity, the "piety" and "playfulness" that real intellectuals demonstrate with respect to their activities, and finally the lamentable tendency of the world to undervalue them. He also makes very clear his distaste for all the forces in American life that oppose what he terms as the "progressive" political agenda of Democrats & intellectuals, and makes the case (as frequently do you) that their prime motivation springs from the anti intellectual forces he describes.

The book could as well have been titled, "An Historical and Sociological Analysis of the Novels of Sinclair Lewis". "Elmer Gantry"; "Babbitt"; "Arrowsmith"; and "It Can't Happen Here" all immediately come to mind.

I thing you are pulling my leg about the heart attack and the smoking.

Glad to see you well and in fighting spirit. I wouldn't like you half as much if you reformed.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 12:03 pm
Well I'm off to a lunch meeting, but want to quickly acknowledge a##hole Blatham for his response.

Quick points

I did enjoy the book, and think that, taken as a descriptive essay on salient (but variable) elements of American culture it is a very good scholarly work. It is the sophistry that accompanies his conclusions and generalizations, and the lack of any comparative analysis to which I object. In short I object only to the very uses you yourself have made with respect to the work.

The definition of "intellectual" to which you object, along with the unfortunate statements regarding Eisenhower and Adali Stevenson were all taken from the very introductory material to which you refer. (I can do the quotes and typing later) H. dedicated several pages and repeated references to his narrow definition of "intellectual', and I reported them accurately. He refers repeatedly to "the life of the mind", "the love of ideas for their own sake", distinctions between mere practical application and real intellectual activity, the "piety" and "playfulness" that real intellectuals demonstrate with respect to their activities, and finally the lamentable tendency of the world to undervalue them. He also makes very clear his distaste for all the forces in American life that oppose what he terms as the "progressive" political agenda of Democrats & intellectuals, and makes the case (as frequently do you) that their prime motivation springs from the anti intellectual forces he describes.

The book could as well have been titled, "An Historical and Sociological Analysis of the Novels of Sinclair Lewis". "Elmer Gantry"; "Babbitt"; "Arrowsmith"; and "It Can't Happen Here" all immediately come to mind.

I thing you are pulling my leg about the heart attack and the smoking.

Glad to see you well and in fighting spirit. I wouldn't like you half as much if you reformed.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 12:04 pm
Well I'm off to a lunch meeting, but want to quickly acknowledge a##hole Blatham for his response.

Quick points

I did enjoy the book, and think that, taken as a descriptive essay on salient (but variable) elements of American culture it is a very good scholarly work. It is the sophistry that accompanies his conclusions and generalizations, and the lack of any comparative analysis to which I object. In short I object only to the very uses you yourself have made with respect to the work.

The definition of "intellectual" to which you object, along with the unfortunate statements regarding Eisenhower and Adali Stevenson were all taken from the very introductory material to which you refer. (I can do the quotes and typing later) H. dedicated several pages and repeated references to his narrow definition of "intellectual', and I reported them accurately. He refers repeatedly to "the life of the mind", "the love of ideas for their own sake", distinctions between mere practical application and real intellectual activity, the "piety" and "playfulness" that real intellectuals demonstrate with respect to their activities, and finally the lamentable tendency of the world to undervalue them. He also makes very clear his distaste for all the forces in American life that oppose what he terms as the "progressive" political agenda of Democrats & intellectuals, and makes the case (as frequently do you) that their prime motivation springs from the anti intellectual forces he describes.

The book could as well have been titled, "An Historical and Sociological Analysis of the Novels of Sinclair Lewis". "Elmer Gantry"; "Babbitt"; "Arrowsmith"; and "It Can't Happen Here" all immediately come to mind.

I thing you are pulling my leg about the heart attack and the smoking.

Glad to see you well and in fighting spirit. I wouldn't like you half as much if you reformed.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2005 12:05 pm
dupe
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 01:07 am
Geroge ob1- Your posts regarding Anti-Intellectualism in American life renew in me a desire to reconnect with the book I read many years ago.

However, the critique of your interpretation by Mr. Blatham, who, as he has taken pains to tell us, never makes a mistake, was most puzzling to me since my memory told me that you had indeed reported Hofstader fairly.

It was then that I dug out my old copy--1963- Knopf and discovered that your quotes were, as you indicated, quite accurate. I could only find one instance in your quotes where you substituted the word "led" for "aroused" but it is clear that, despite the remonstrances of Mr. Blatham, you had indeed quoted Hofstader correctly and, what is more important, from the introduction you were supposed to have missed.

Thanks for a good review of points from a controversial book, George ob1. Your posts are always a pleasure to read.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 03:30 pm
OK then, I finally get to your discussion, george. Sorry for the long delay but I've only now found the bit of time necessary to do some re-reading and typing. Any thinking, on the other hand, I will have to allocate to another occasion.

You make two claims regarding Hofstadter's thesis or commentary which are not supported in the text, so far as I can find. In fact, they are both explicitly argued against by him. First, that Hofstadter believes anti-intellectualism is unique to American culture and, second, that he defines anti-intellectualism 'rather narrowly'.

As to the first point...
Quote:
...a book on anti-intellectualism in America can hardly be taken as though it were meant to be a balanced assessment of our culture, any more than a history of bankruptcies could be taken as a full history of our business life. Although I believe that anti-intellectualism is pervasive in our culture, I believe that it can rarely be called dominant... Again, this is not, as it perhaps should be, a comparative study: my concentration on anti-intellectualism in the United States is no more than the result of a special, and possibly parochial, interest in American society. I do not assume that anti-intellectualism does not exist elsewhere. I think that it is a problem of more than ordinary acuteness here, but I believe it has been present in some form and degree in most societies; in one it takes the form of the administering of hemlock, in another of town-and-gown riots, in another of censorship and regimentation, in still another of Congressional investigations. I am disposed to believe that anti-intellectualism, though it has its own universality, may be considered a part of our English cultural inheritance, and that it is notably strong in Anglo-American experience. A few years ago Leonard Woolf remarked that "no people has ever despised and distrusted the intellect and intellectuals more than the British". Perhaps Mr. Woolf had not given sufficient thought to the claims of the Americans to supremacy in this respect (which is understandable, since the British have been tired for more than a centruy of American boasting); but that a British intellectual so long seasoned and wo well informed on the cultural life of his own country could have made such a remark may well give us pause. Although the situation of American intellectuals poses problems of a special urgency and poignancy, many of their woes are common experiences of intellectuals elsewhere, and there are some compensating circumstances in American life.
p 19-20

As to the second point...
Quote:
One reason anti-intellectualism has not even been clearly defined is that its very vagueness makes it more serviceable in controvery as an epithet. But, in any case, it does not yield very readily to definition. As an idea, it is not a single proposition but a complex of related propositions. As an attitude, it is not usually found in a pure form but in ambivalence - a pure and unalloyed dislike of intellect or intellectuals is uncommon. And as a historical subject, if it can be called that, it is not a constant thread but a force fluctuating in strength from time to time and drawing its motive power from varying sources. In these pages I have not held myself to a rigorous or narrow definition, which would here be rather misplaced. I can see little advantage in a logically defensible but historically arbitrary act of definition, which would demand singling out one trait among a complex of traits. It is the complex itself I am interested in - the comlex of historical relations among a variety of attitudes and ideas that have many points of convergence. The common strain that binds together the attitudes and ideas which I call anti-intellectual is a resentment and suspicion of the life of the mind and those who are considered dto represent it; and a disposition constantly to minimize the value of that life. This admittedly general formulation is as close as I find it useful to venture towards defintion...In these pages I am centrally concerned with widespread social attitudes, with political behavior, and with middle-brow and low-brow responses...The attitudes that interest me most are those which would, to the extent that they become effective in our affairs, gravely inhibit or impoverish intellectual and cultural life.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 03:47 pm
Steppenwolf wrote:


You really ought not to shortchange yourself by taking that shadow of a shadow and assuming you now have in your hands the thesis, arguments, ambiguities and rich historical detail of this book.

Here's just a bit from the three chapters discussing "The Practical Culture"...
Quote:
The comtemporary businessman, who is disposed to think of himself as a man of practical achievement and a national benefactor, shouldering enormous responsibilities and suffering from the hostility of flighty men who have never met a paqyroll, finds it hard to take seriously the notion that he always gets his way. He sees himself enmeshed in the bureaucratic regulations of a welfare state that is certainly no creation of his; he feels he is checkmated by powerful unions and regarded suspiciously by a public constantly picqued by intellectuals. He may also be aware that in former days - in the time, say, of Andrew Carnegie - the great business leader, despite some hostility, was a culture-hero. In those days businessmen were promient national figures in their own right, sages to be consulted on almost every aspect of life. But since the times of Henry Ford - the last of his kind - this heroic image has gone into eclipse....At times the businessman may think of himself as having been stripped of his prestige by the intellectual and his allies, in a hostile environment created by intellectuals. If so, he overestimates the power of the intellectuals. In fact, the prestige of the businessman has been destroyed largely by his own achievements: it was he who created the giant corporation, an impersonal agency that overshadows his reputation as it disciplines his career; it was his own incessant propaganda about the American Way of Life and Free Ente4rprise that made these spongy abstractions into public generalities shich soak up and assimilate the reputations of the individual enterprisers...An uneasy symbiosis has actually developed between business and intellect. In the US, where government has done far less for the arts and learning than in Europe, culture has always been dependent upon private patronage; it has not been any less dependent in recent decades, when the criticism of business has been so dominant a concern of intellectuals.
0 Replies
 
 

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