Circumcision - Looking for Opinions

good point chai !

I look at it this way: If the doctors wanted to cut the outer lips off of a baby girls vagina, we'd call it genital mutilation. But cut off the excess skin on a boy and we call it ok.

hmmm

seem to remember we had that convo before...

How about a semi-circumcision?

Oh wait wait wait Bella Dea... that is something practiced in Africa and some parts of Asia. The significant difference is that... women who get this "surgery" (to give it a civilized name), are unable of feeling any sexual pleasure...

... at least thats what I've heard, so its a totally different story, with NO medical fundament at all.

I am not talking about removing the clitoris. I am talking about removing the lips which do not serve a function other than protection of the vagina. Which is exactly what the foreskin is there for; protection of the penis.

How is removing the foreskin a "medical fundament'? God put it there for a reason, don't you think he meant us to leave it there?

I can so see both sides of this....

bella, when I first heard of FC, I nearly lost my lunch...

a couple of random thoughts.

MC is done when the boy is a few days old. Can he remember it at some level? Don't know. But C has been practiced by many peaceful societies, so I'm not thinking it'll ruin the guy mind or anything.

This sounds so callous, but really, it's no different from docking a dogs tail or ears, or declawing a cat. For instance all my cats have been declawed, and NEVER go outside. I'm an extrememly responsible pet owner. I've had people who don't know what they are talking about say they "heard" somewhere that when you remove a cat's claws, it like cutting off a persons fingers at the first knuckle. Stuff and nonsense.

My cats are much healthier than outdoor cats, live longer and are happier. In addition, they would be dead if they weren't declawed, because I would have had to kill them for destroying my good furniture.
Myself, I find no problem with docking ears or tails either.

Similiarly, in a human, it's a small piece of skin.

Now, females who are circumcised are at the age of puberty, and don't even know what's going to be done to them. It's performed by one of the village elders, and obviously a lot more skin, flesh and nerves are involved.
That's quite different that having someone who has performed this procedure thousands of times, in a clean environment.

There is definetly a risk. I read a book recently on the true account of such a case. it's called "the boy who was raised as a girl"

there was a set of male twins set to go in for circumcision. The first one went fine, the 2nd one, to put it mildly, went horribly wrong.

However, even in this case, the circumsion was performed in a non-tradionaly manner, not with a knife or with a bell cap, but this some device that involved an electrical current.

I'll say no more, as I know every man is cupping his privates right now.

Anyway, the parents where basically told to raise him as a girl, and they'll be no problems. Didn't exactly work out that way.
I also heard this guy on an interview on npr.

Anyway, I think everyone agrees this is the parents decesion. Times change, and I suppose I'm a product of my times. Boys were just all circumcised in my day.

and, uh....I prefer how it looks

Now, when I think of things like foot binding, that really makes me sick, so I guess it's just a matter of degree.

Apparantly I had some birth mark on my head that had to be burned off with dry ice when I was a baby. I don't remember it, but I know dry ice burns like a son of a b, and I'm sure I screamed.

Hey everybody, let's talk about Prince Alberts!

Ahh... well... God talking is a risky business. But hey, we are far from perfect. Im thinking about apendecities and wisdom tooth. Probably that not far, but not quite near.

Absolutely right. And, for the record, my nephew was, of course (as per our faith), 8 days old when it happened. In Judaism, it's a semi-event for close family. The actual operation is fast, then, well, we have cake and stuff and the men all talk baseball or really anything other than the details of what just happened. The women ooh and ahh over the baby.

And, anyway, he did not cry. I remember this well because I am one of his 2 aunts and was very close during the procedure.

PS el_pohl, my relatives originally came to Mexico as refugees from Poland during the Second World War. The US would not let them in, but God bless Mexico for doing so. They have great names, too, very Spanish first names like Bernardo and very Eastern European Jewish surnames like Goldblum (not their last name, just using that for an example. Don't want to violate their privacy, of course).

I had to take a look at this thread to see if it was serious.

CJ is correct in saying that the subject just doesn't arise in Europe, unless it is for religeous reasons, or there is a medical neccesity that makes it happen.

We used to do the survey of "roundheads or cavaliers" when we were in the changing rooms at junior school.

There were hardly any roundheads.

Haha, I think I know who are the roundheads...

And Jespah, Goldblum sounds like a name for a Dragonlance character, I like it! But tell me (and/or us)... how did this begin as a jewish tradition? I absolutely have no idea how it came to their mind to cut that excess piece of material.

PS. Who's Prince Alberts? :$ ... oh, him!

I have had a friend from Mexico city with the name Blank de Blank Levi - don't know so much about his family history. He was a boyfriend of a friend. The question at hand in this topic never came up (gurgle) when we talked about him.

Past all this, I suppose there are a number of people in Mexico d.f. with the same background as Jespah's family there, and thank goodness, as she said, Mexico was welcoming. (I almost typed members.)

The big difference between male and female circumcision is that female circumcision is done expressly to prevent women from experiencing sexual pleasure. It is believed that will keep them chaste.

Male circumcision is done for entirely different reasons...religious and (true or not) medical. It has no effect on a man's sexual abilities, assuming it is done correctly.

I had no strong feelings one way or the other when it came to our son, so I let my husband make the decision. If it had been a decision involving a daughter's body, I'm sure I would have had much stronger opinions. But that's just me.

My parents, who raised us in an era where circumcision was the rule, had a hissy fit when they heard we were even discussing it. They blew a gasket when we told them that insurance no longer covers it because it is an elective and "unnecessary" procedure.

My husband decided to have our boy circumcised after all...mostly because 75% of boys here are circumcised and he didn't want him to grow up being in the minority and maybe feeling "weird" about it. So I said okay. Our doctor is Jewish, and he performed the procedure at 8 days. I went down the hall while they were doing it, as I recall.

A few months later, when it was time to begin immunizations, it was my husband's turn to walk the halls. Funny, isn't it. He could be there to hold his son while someone cut his little penis, but he couldn't stomach seeing the baby get shots. I never did figure that one out.

In the US he'll probably be singled out and ridiculed for having the hood by his schoolmates most of whom will be circumcised.

I don't know the circumcision rates in Mexico, but I don't think they're anywhere near that of the US.

in the northeast and the west the rates are down (in the west down significantly where it has stayed under 40% for a fair while) the one place where there is a major increase is the midwest where it was at about 81% in 1999 (as opposed to its low of 70% around 1985) so the odds are with a kid no matter where he lives that there will be others who match up with him whether he is circumcised or not. A google search can find the general trend on circumcision rates over the years and according to area of the world.

As to circumcision itself out of all of us, me and my brothers and a few male cousins and dear old dad and gramps there is a mixture of both and it is fairly evenly divided and add to this no health concerns of note on either side of the circumcision procedure.

If you take your wisdom teeth or apendix out just because, you are stupid. If you take them out because they are infected, you are saving your life. If a boys foreskin should ever become life threatening by all means, clip it off.

And Chai, I don't agree with declawing or cropping.

Not true. In fact, one of my boyfriends in hs was uncircumcised and never experienced grief from it.

It goes back to Abraham, the first Jew. It's God's covenant with Abraham, basically, according to the Old Testament, it's God's means of identifying Jews, and of you identifying yourself as a Jew. You wait for 8 days after a boy is born before it can be done. If the eighth day falls on the Sabbath, though, you wait until the Sabbath is over.

I have no idea why the practice branched out past Judaism. It was originally just intended to be a religious thing.

You're right there Bella, I don't believe the boys in the locker room care one way or the other nowadays.

We might have to ask some boys about that, as we wont know...

And well Bella, apendix and - most of all - wisdom teeth are known of causing more grief than happiness. That, of course, doesnt mean that they should be removed at birth or during life just like that... dont exaggerate. Besides, we are assymetrical, some are born with physical problems, and we get people pregnant through the same conduct through which we have sex! I think that is a sort of punishment ...

... I dont think that we are perfect. But, thats not the purpose of this thread.