More Secrecy Revealed - The sickness Continues

Hmm...first I have heard of the Eastern Europe ones, the others, as well as torture outsourcing, have been known for ages.

Good observation, Dlowan. Care to comment on the question I posed?

The question you pose, snood, has a minor flaw... The assumption of a moral compass. We have claimed to have one for a long time, but have we? (Think Vietnam,Watergate, Iran Contra, indicating we wouldn't do anything and then sending in troops when Saddam attacks Kuwait, selling Saddam the chemical weapons then invading cause he had them and used them, etc.)

I have, all over the site, in a number of threads!

I think this the most difficult thing of all, in this "war against terror"...that governments almost always wish to grab the right to do more in more secrecy with less accountability, and here is a fabulous opportunity to do so.

Torture and these secret incarcerations are prime examples of losing what you claim to be fighting for.


That being said, I think there do need to be new ways of dealing with terrorists under law...the question is how, and how to be able to be responsive without losing the rule of decent law.

I don't think that because our leadership hasn't had a moral compass makes my question flawed, squinney. I think the question I asked (redundancy notwithstanding, dlowan), and questions like it, need to be asked and asked again and again. The Senate Democrats got a little backbone yesterday and caused a closed session for the purpose of demanding answers to some of the questions about this war. I think a lot of waking up, asking and answering questions needs to be done.

...and by the passionate overrunning of replies, I see my concern is shared by the multitude. shee.

Well, perhaps due to the title of the thread. I thought the story about CIA outsourcing prisoners to eastern europe has not been posted yet on a2k and happened upon this thread only through advanced search.

I share some of the concerns posted on the dailykos blog. Especially, why the secrecy the WaPo story is riddled with? Why didn't we learn the names of the two Eastern European countries? Why isn't the Post calling, among other things, their leadership to answer the accusation of involving in practices in direct controversy with the Geneva Conventions?
From other stories and interviews online I gather Poland and Romania are suspect, but I am not sure. Human Rights Watch has been following logs of army aircrafts, and most point to these destinations, especially right after the closedown of Guantanamo. Would the Post be breaking some law by making these information public? I can't imagine why else would the report be so vague, as obviously they have much more information then they are publishing. Strange, no?

http://openthread.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/11/1/223740/436

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/86734122-4be9-11da-997b-0000779e2340.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Main page content:
Evidence CIA has secret jails in Europe
By Demetri Sevastopulo, Guy Dinmore and Caroline Daniel in Washington, and Jan Cienski in Warsaw
Published: November 2 2005 21:55 | Last updated: November 2 2005 21:55

A leading human rights group on Wednesday identified Poland and Romania as the likely locations in eastern Europe of secret prisons where al-Qaeda suspects are interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The existence of the prisons in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several eastern European democracies was reported in Wednesday's Washington Post.

Poland's role, if confirmed, would be especially controversial, given that it has recently joined the European Union.

Human Rights Watch, a US lobby group, on Wednesday said there was strong evidence - including the flight records of CIA aircraft transporting prisoners out of Afghanistan - that Poland and Romania were among countries allowing the agency to operate secret detention centres on their soil.

"We have a high degree of confidence that such facilities exist in at least Poland and Romania," said Tom Malinowski, Washington advocacy director.

If the allegations were confirmed, they would be likely to provoke serious concern in the European Union.

Leszek Laszczak, spokesman for the Polish defence ministry, said: "No people suspected of terrorist activities were held in military bases on the territory of the Republic of Poland, either as a result of an agreement with the US government or with any other institutions of the US."

A spokeswoman for Traian Basescu, Romanian president, declined to comment.


The CIA on Wednesday declined to comment. Stephen Hadley, President George W. Bush's national security adviser, said: "We do what is necessary to defend the country against terrorist attacks and win the war on terror in ways that is consistent with our values."

"The fact that [the alleged prisons] are secret, assuming there are such sites . . . some people say the test of your principles is what you do when no-one is looking. The president has insisted that whether in public or private, the same principles will apply."

The Washington Post did not name the European countries at the request of US officials.

Human rights groups have long criticised the CIA's practice of "renditions", whereby captives are returned to countries, including those accused by the State Department of torture, for continued imprisonment.


US military investigations have also criticised the CIA for hiding so-called "ghost detainees" from the International Committee of the Red Cross in Afghanistan.

The organisation has continued to raise the issue of secret detention centres with Washington but has received no response, the ICRC said.

Jakob Kellenberger, ICRC president, first asked the US for notification of arrests and access to undisclosed detention centres in a visit to Washington in January 2004.

Antonella Notari, ICRC spokeswoman, said: "We are still hopeful the US will grant notification and access to people they are detaining."

Additional reporting by Christopher Condon in Budapest and Andrei Postelnicu in New York

Thank you, Wiyaka. Even more astounding to me than the depth of the hypocrisy and dissembling of this administration is the willful ignorance of those who defend their wrongs, in the name of being an "American".

Is Turtle Island in Thailand?

Turtle Island is a Native American, First Nations expression for North America.

However, I've seen a photo of turtles on an island in Thailand.

Smart, and funny too. Hot dog.