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Atheists... Your life is pointless

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 6 Dec, 2006 01:04 pm
Piling straw on straw, rl wrote:
The term I used , 'humanist viewpoint' , is equivalent to the term 'humanist position', which fresco used in his post.

Indeed - but irrelevant.

Quote:
If you want to deny that humanists have ANY viewpoint, you may. It's like denying that they think.

That's not what I was saying, but it may be what you are trying to maintain.

To pretend that humanists haven't a viewpoint is laughable,

The straw here lies in the falsehood predicated on your implication that any such thing was said or implied.

Quote:
but you're good for a few chuckles.

When fed excellent straightlines, damned near anyone can come up with decent punchlines ... we're not laughing with you, rl.

Quote:
Another term would be 'humanist philosophy'.

And yet another term would be "reality based".

Quote:
Is that term politically correct enough for you?

The straw here lies in the falsehood of your diversionary implication that "political correctness" enters at all into the discussion.

Quote:
Or do you just shout 'straw man' when you don't know what to say otherwise?

The straw here lies in the falsehood of your allegations.




Thanks for the entertainment - that consistently you do well, wittingly or otherwise.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Wed 6 Dec, 2006 03:13 pm
I think it reasonable to conclude that the political stance known as secular humanism is "viewpoint neutral" regarding religion. It is "religion free" insofar as it sees no THEOLOGICAL relevance (or valid role) for religion in the civic life of society. But this does not mean it is politically neutral regarding the role of organized religion in political matters. As a secular humanist I am keenly concerned to keep religion apart from the functions of civic life. I DO think, however, that Humanism as a cultural movement is ideologically loaded: it idealizes the nature and potential of the human being and his creative products and potential (without the help of supernatural forces)..
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 6 Dec, 2006 03:49 pm
JLNobody wrote:
I DO think, however, that Humanism as a cultural movement is ideologically loaded: it idealizes the nature and potential of the human being and his creative products and potential (without the help of supernatural forces)..

And that would be a bad thing because ... ?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Wed 6 Dec, 2006 06:26 pm
Timber, I do not mean that it is bad. On the contrary, it is the historical cultural movement which, as an expression of the Enlightenment, has provided Western society with the degree of civilization that it has. It has described man as the author of his life, the beneficiary and responsible agent of his forms of existence.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Thu 7 Dec, 2006 12:54 am
For those interested in "blasphemy legislation".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3753408.stm


(c.i. Your comments are appreciated !).
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 7 Dec, 2006 09:18 am
fresco wrote:
For those interested in "blasphemy legislation".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3753408.stm


Wow, the muslims are going to love that law, I'm sure they can find lots of objectionable language and action which can be called blasphemy.

Nice to know the US is not the only place with crazy laws.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 7 Dec, 2006 10:11 am
fresco, This last paragraph from your link summarizes the problem with their (England's) blasphemy law. It only protects "christians."

But won't proposals on incitement to religious hatred protect minority faiths anyhow?

The government says no. They say the proposed law aims to close a subtle loophole: If you were to incite hatred against someone because of the colour of their skin that would be a serious crime. But if you were to do so because of their religious beliefs - that would not. The new law will protect people caught in this loophole - but insist it will not curtail frank discussion about the merits of religion.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Fri 8 Dec, 2006 12:57 am
JLNobody wrote:
I think it reasonable to conclude that the political stance known as secular humanism is "viewpoint neutral" regarding religion. It is "religion free" insofar as it sees no THEOLOGICAL relevance (or valid role) for religion in the civic life of society. But this does not mean it is politically neutral regarding the role of organized religion in political matters. As a secular humanist I am keenly concerned to keep religion apart from the functions of civic life. I DO think, however, that Humanism as a cultural movement is ideologically loaded: it idealizes the nature and potential of the human being and his creative products and potential (without the help of supernatural forces)..


JNL,

Do you think the government would be 'viewpoint neutral' if it promoted humanism?

This is especially relevant since humanism does address religious topics with it's own spin.







Quote:
Humans created the Gods and Goddesses in their own image.


from http://www.religioustolerance.org/humanism.htm







Quote:
During 2000-JUN, a federal court of appeals ruled that Humanism is a religion.
from http://www.religioustolerance.org/humanism2.htm








The founders of the modern humanist movement seemed to regard it as religious in nature. From the opening paragraph of Humanist Manifesto I:

Quote:
The time has come for widespread recognition of the radical changes in religious beliefs throughout the modern world......In order that religious humanism may be better understood we, the undersigned, desire to make certain affirmations which we believe the facts of our contemporary life demonstrate.


More from the intro:

Quote:
Today man's larger understanding of the universe, his scientific achievements, and deeper appreciation of brotherhood, have created a situation which requires a new statement of the means and purposes of religion...........any religion that can hope to be a synthesizing and dynamic force for today must be shaped for the needs of this age. To establish such a religion is a major necessity of the present. It is a responsibility which rests upon this generation. We therefore affirm the following:


Note that they state the entire purpose for the affirmations which follow is to establish a modern religion which is suited for modern society.

And after stating the affirmations in detail, concludes:

Quote:
So stand the theses of religious humanism.
from http://www.americanhumanist.org/humanism/manifesto1.php





Are we really expected to believe that any government which may undertake to promote humanism is 'viewpoint neutral'?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Fri 8 Dec, 2006 01:19 am
Just checking in from seeing the Thread Title, after some respite.

What an obnoxious thread title. Do we have to do this all again?
0 Replies
 
pswfps
 
  1  
Fri 2 Mar, 2007 03:46 pm
Quote:
've always wondered why people that are so adamant about the non-existence of God, debate morals and what is right and wrong.

Morality is a basic assumption of civilisation. Morality is really the rules/laws of the society we live in. It is natural that the validity of moral codes are to be questioned and revised because society is dynamic.

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If there is no God and this world is truly just a cosmic fluke, than your life and everything that happens in it are of no consequence whatsoever.

No, they are of consequence to me and the people I affect.

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Why not just do whatever you want and not care about others. After all, survival of the fittest is the name of the game right?

Humans are social creatures which is of massive evolutionary significance. We care about each other because ultimately our own survival is inherantly bound up with the survival of our fellow humans.
0 Replies
 
Run 4 fun
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 09:06 pm
But hey, if there is no mind, no spirit, just a brain, then every action or thought you have is merely the random electrobiochemical reaction of our brains to stimuli. We have no choices just what our gray matter happens to do in response to whatever is going on. No God, no spirit, no mind, no choice, no reason to debate about anything. I understand why I as a Christian debate, but in the atheistic worldveiw, there is no reason to at all. Confused
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 10:52 pm
If every action is merely a chemical reaction resultant from a previous chemical reaction or stimulus, then one cannot be responsible for any action, large or small.

We have built nearly our entire society on the notion that we are responsible for our actions. This assumes a free will.

Law has no point if one cannot be responsible or accountable for his/her actions. That would include laws on any matter from traffic infractions to mass murder.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 10:54 pm
Would that include Bush's preemptive attack on a soverign country that didn't pose any danger to Americans, and ended up killing some 100,000 innocent Iraqis?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 11:10 pm
real life wrote:
We have built nearly our entire society on the notion that we are responsible for our actions.
Is that why the Mafia went to confessional with such regularity? Is that why there are numerous chaplains in every branch of the military?
real life wrote:
This assumes a free will.
Since when did assumptions become legitimate arguments let alone facts?
real life wrote:
Law has no point if one cannot be responsible or accountable for his/her actions. That would include laws on any matter from traffic infractions to mass murder.
The punishment inherent in law is not predicated on the presumption of free will but on the presumption of expediency.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 11:15 pm
No idea what CI or Chumly are talking about. Mafia and Iraq were not even being discussed.

Guys, if you're going to bring in wild, off the wall examples to try to prove a point, then make it clear what point you are trying to make.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 11:18 pm
Those are not "wild" examples; they are true-to-life examples.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 4 Mar, 2007 12:06 am
Ttrue-to-life they are!
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pswfps
 
  1  
Sun 4 Mar, 2007 03:40 am
Run 4 fun wrote:
But hey, if there is no mind, no spirit, just a brain, then every action or thought you have is merely the random electrobiochemical reaction of our brains to stimuli. We have no choices just what our gray matter happens to do in response to whatever is going on. No God, no spirit, no mind, no choice, no reason to debate about anything. I understand why I as a Christian debate, but in the atheistic worldveiw, there is no reason to at all. Confused


Not sure if random is the right word to use. The most beneficial response to a stimulus is unlikely to be achieved by a random decission process. Before we get into this, the truth is we don't really know how the brain generates sentience. The self-awareness that we each call "I" is a complete mystery. Now even if it turns out to be true, that there are no real choices to be made, debate still remains a valid method of sharing ideas and concepts with each other. The importance of communication in a survival context is obvious and equally applicable regardless of whether you believe in free-will or determinism.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 4 Mar, 2007 04:48 am
pswfps

Welcome to A2K,

Your take on sentience and communication will be welcomed by those of us here who tend towards non-dualism.
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Run 4 fun
 
  1  
Sun 4 Mar, 2007 06:39 am
I say random because all that causes it is the way the universe happened to fall together and our brains happened to form that makes us do what we do. And what makes something beneficial but the way are brain happened to be that we react to some things as more favorable than others? Suppose it happened a different way and my brain reacts that it is beneficial to regularly burn my fingers, toes, knees, and elbows. Surely these would not be beneficial. This may seem like a ridiculous example, but what about immaterial things like love. The atheist values it, but why? All that is the universe is material and so love is just some chemical phenomenon and there would be nothing wrong about kicking your wife and kids out if they didn't make you happy anymore, because you can do whatever floats your boat. After all, "happiness" is just another of those chemical phenomena, neither you nor your family mean anything more than the ant squashed on the sidewalk anyway.
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