hephzibah wrote:Hi guys and gals. How's everyone doing tonight? 136 pages huh? This seems to be quite a thread. I haven't had a chance to read much in this. 136 pages is a bit overwhelming. So what's the scoop here? I'm curious. Would anyone like to sumarize for me?
That would be cheating. Go put on a pot of coffee, and read the whole thing.
cicerone imposter wrote:Sure, it's easy.
Christians: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....
Atheists: blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....
Nothing of consequence or import.
LOL too funny! Thanks CI.
Well, having not read 136 pages of this thread I know I've missed maybe a little something. However... I don't think I have enough coffee in my house to keep me up reading this. :wink: So I'll just say, regardless of what others have said I personally don't think an athiests life is pointless. I don't think anyone's is. Regardless of what they believe, what there beginning was, or what their end will be. There. That's my two cents. LOL hope ya'll don't mind. And if ya do... well... hmm... don't know what to tell ya except to build yourself a bridge and get over it.
I'd say you nailed it, c.i. - can't think of a thing to add. Well there have been a couple decent jokes, but those are buried in here somewhere - if anybody wants 'em, they gotta wade through the muck and dig 'em out on their own.
You're an eagle...use those damn eyes, and bring 'em back in your talons.
The voice crying in the wilderness . . .
Many (most?) Americans believe that life's true meaning is only found in the Christian version of religion. American Christian religion is after all a mufti-billion dollar a year enterprise espoused by the US President and all the way down the ranks to the great unwashed.
I am not sure reason will prevail in the face of relgion, but I suppose that's OK as long as tolerance prevails.
Tolerance is the essential element to strive for despite how difficult that is for both the reasoning mind and the believer.
The beauty of reason is that you actually can say "who's reason is right", (at least under certain circumstnces one has a viable chance of doing so).
Here is the dictionary definition of reason as used in this context: "The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought".
Therefore by extension I mean logic, the scientific method, and the logical methods of proof. Reason is not subject to personal perception or perspective to anywhere near the degree of say Christianity.
Why? Reason is built on proof whereas religion is built on belief.
A simple example if I may: I will reason that a wrist watch is a mechanism to keep time while you will reason that a wrist watch is something to eat. The two reasonings and their methods to reach their differing conclusions are not equal in merit.
By tolerance I did *not* mean that everyone's views have equal merit, nor that one person's reasoning is as good as another's.
Here is the dictionary definition of tolerance that fits this context: "The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others".
Myself, I hold tolerance to be most dear, and if you wish to classify that as a belief and not based on reason, I can accept that.
Here's your religious reason and logic:
Og steps outta the cave, hungry, sees rabbit, sees rock, picks up rock, hurls rock toward rabbit, rock strikes rabbit squarely, rabbit falls over dead, Og gathers up rabbit, has dinner. Og knew what to do, how to do it, and did that; Og is mighty. Og cannot make bright light fly through air with frightening noises, strike tree, make fire; Og sees that does happen, Og reasons someone has to have been behind it, someone unimagineably mightier than Og, Og concludes there must be gods, and that a god did that. Stomach full, mind at ease, Og settles down by the fire that warms the cave through the benevolence of the gods, and sleeps peacefully.
timber
Quote:Why? Reason is built on proof whereas religion is built on belief.
While I understand completely what you are saying, what you are missing is that to the believer, belief is proof of God. It's all relavant you see.
Quote:Here is the dictionary definition of reason as used in this context: "The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought".
To the believer thought of God is logical, rational, and analytic. Why? Because of their experience with Him. What we believe regardless of if that includes religion or not is based on our personal life experience. Example: If a woman was continually abused through-out their childhood. Then she grows up, moves out and gets married. To her dismay she married someone who abuses her. So they divorce and she remarrys. Again, someone who abuses her. Eventually she just gives up and writes off all men as "abusers". Whether this is true or not, her "reasoning" behind that is based purely on the fact that most every relationship she had experienced with men had been abusive. That doesn't necessarily mean her reasoning is correct. Never-the-less it is still her reasoning and the basis for the decisions she will make the rest of her life concerning this issue.
Quote:Reason is not subject to personal perception or perspective to anywhere near the degree of say Christianity.
I disagree.
Quote:Here is the dictionary definition of tolerance that fits this context: "The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others".
Yes. That is exactally what I was trying to say here. I think I just got a little side tracked. Sorry
heph, What you describe as "experience with god" are nothing more than brain waves that makes the believer feel good about himself and the world.
Your idea that it's "logical, rational, and analytic" holds true for most humans that believes/d in any kind of god whether it be christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu, mayan, or the sun god. It fails to be logical.
Sacrifice anyone?
Heph,
Do you mean to suggest that to the religious person the words belief and reason are interchangeable?
cicerone imposter wrote:heph, What you describe as "experience with god" are nothing more than brain waves that makes the believer feel good about himself and the world.
Your idea that it's "logical, rational, and analytic" holds true for most humans that believes/d in any kind of god whether it be christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu, mayan, or the sun god. It fails to be logical.
Sacrifice anyone?
CI I fail to see the relevance of what you believe the source of belief is to this whole thing.
Quote:Your idea that it's "logical, rational, and analytic" holds true for most humans that believes/d in any kind of god whether it be christian, buddhist, muslim, hindu, mayan, or the sun god. It fails to be logical.
Not really CI. My example had nothing to do with God or gods of any sort. It had everything to do with how a person percieves things. You are right about it failing to be logical. To you. Which proves my point. It is completely logical to me because of what I believe. It is completely illogical to you because of what you believe. So who then is to say who is right in this situation?
Yeah, but it gets goofier in short order. The life expectancy of Og and ilk is about 16 or 17 years--the life span may still be three score and ten, but one cannot reasonably expect to reach that age. Much of the reduced life expectancy is a result of infant and child mortality, but still, endemic disease and morbid or traumatic accidents, absent reliable medical care, assure that only rarely do most survivors of childhood live much past adolescence, and fewer still live much beyond reproductive maturity.
It is not to be expected that homo sapiens sapiens tens of thousands of years ago was any less intelligent than now--simply ignorant and governed by the superstitious fear which the Big Bird has described. With few people reaching intellectual maturity, adolescent attitudes and adolescent ignorance prevail.
At any time as a truly intelligent and perceptive individual is born, and survives child birth, and survives a filty and likely often malnourished childhood, reaches reproductive maturity and survives that, they will have acquire knowledge of the world greater by orders of magnitude than their fellows . . .
Thag, you pretty damned smart. How come big light boom in sky and start fires in trees?
Well, Og . . . we all know about the thunderbird, and we've all seen the clouds swirling angrily as she passes, right?
Sure, Og see many times. You gotta point here, Thag?
Sure, Og . . . the Thunderbird is angry, so she starts trees on fire. Now, we're pretty damned clever, so we pick up some of the fire and bring it back to the cave to keep warm and to drive the stink and sickness that hides in the meat after a couple of days, right?
You're movin' to fast there, Thag, but i think i'm with ya. Why is the Thunderbird angry?
Because, you great awkward bastard, you didn't thank her for the fire, and you didn't thank Wolf god for the elk, and you didn't thank Cave Bear god for this nice, roomy, dry cave.
OK, it would piss me off if i gave away a buncha good stuff like that and didn't get some prime ass-kissin' response--so what do we do now.
Well, me an the acolyte . . .
There you go again with the stupid sounds--what the Hell is an acolyte--you mean like that really hot girl you keep takin' out to the willow grove for . . . what do you call that?
Rituals, Og, rituals . . . yes, ahem, i'm teaching Silf the rituals for thanking Thunderbird and Wolf and Cave Bear, and, uh . . . well, the whole fertility thing, but that's a mystery, so we'll just let that ride. Anyhoo, me and the acolyte need to offer gifts to the gods to thank them, and make sure we get more elk and lots of dry firewood--remember that deadfall i found?
OK, OK . . . what do you want.
Well, that elk liver for starters--Thunderbird is rather partial to elk liver . . . and some of those fatty haunches from the boar you killed yesterday, before the stink and sickness devils get into the meat.
You know, Thag, sometimes i think . . . well . . . never mind, here ya go. Can we watch.
No . . . you know that just pisses the gods off more. I told you about thinking, it just confuses you and interfers with communication with the gods. Me and Silf will take these fine offerings--give me some of those yams, too, will ya, we'ver gotta eat too, ya know--and go over to the willow grove for the appropriate rituals. Get ready for a big hunt next full moon, and make sure none of your idiot boys break any taboos, or i can't be responsible for the consequence.
OK, OK, Thag . . . just don't forget who's chief around here, and watch how you talk to me in front of the boys. Enjoy the elk liver, you old faker.
See ya in the morning, Og.
Wait . . . Thag, what's a bastard?
Later, Og, one spiritual concept at a time, 'K?
timberlandko wrote:Here's your religious reason and logic:
Og steps outta the cave, hungry, sees rabbit, sees rock, picks up rock, hurls rock toward rabbit, rock strikes rabbit squarely, rabbit falls over dead, Og gathers up rabbit, has dinner. Og knew what to do, how to do it, and did that; Og is mighty. Og cannot make bright light fly through air with frightening noises, strike tree, make fire; Og sees that does happen, Og reasons someone has to have been behind it, someone unimagineably mightier than Og, Og concludes there must be gods, and that a god did that. Stomach full, mind at ease, Og settles down by the fire that warms the cave through the benevolence of the gods, and sleeps peacefully.
timber
Og learns to read. Og learns of Benjamin Franklin lightning experience and continues to believe in Thor. Og superstitious. Og's brother Erg continues research. Erg curious. Erg wants to learn. Maybe hope for Erg. See ya later, Og.
Chumly wrote:Heph,
Do you mean to suggest that to the religious person the words belief and reason are interchangeable?
I mean to say that belief is based on the reasoning of the person believing it. Regardess of who the person is.