Atheists... Your life is pointless

@MattDavis,

I think the kid you proposed having a hissy-fit was hypothetical. And she is hypothetically in existence which is not what this discussion is about.

I was meaning all educated, potential parents discussing parenting. They are not hypothetical and they are what this discussion is about. I should not have to repeat things I have already said. I know it is a technique to stay in a discussion that goes around in circles.

I don't equate origin with purpose. I don't know where you get an idea like that from. I am simply being practical. Educated potential parents are not thinking in terms of origin and purpose. They are thinking responsibility for outcomes which they cannot shirk. Which is something no organism in Darwin has done.

My vantage point, which I didn't choose, is entirely empirical. As empirical enough to be what millions do when they practice birth control every day. Some do it naturally. Some rely on pharmacies or other medical services.

The question remains--what justification does an educated atheist offer for bringing new life into a pointless world in the full knowledge of the risks to another?

Last night CBS News informed us that 1 in 3 Americans will die of Alzheimer's. Not long ago it was 1 in 3 from cancer.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

This is just silliness. "Atheism" is an "-ism" only to the extent that believers in religion find it convenient to call it that. "Atheism" is not a belief set that seeks to explain anything. If someone is what a theist calls an atheist, he or she can easily explain injustice in terms of economic or political inequality--certainly there is nothing inherent in any form of theism which explains injustice. Very often, in fact, religion is the problem rather than the solution. Religions routinely segregate people into believers and infidels, and act in a prejudicial manner toward anyone who doesn't share the belief, even other theists. It is an absurdity to claim, directly or inferentially that theism has any superior value in identifying and correcting injustices.

Upon what basis could anyone make the idiotic assertion that only those who believe in a god are capable of recognizing and explaining injustice? Are people incapable of seeing and understanding the world around them unless they believe in a god? Please . . . that's horseshit, plain and simple.

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@spendius,

Spendius wrote:

I don't equate origin with purpose. I don't know where you get an idea like that from. I am simply being practical. Educated potential parents are not thinking in terms of origin and purpose. They are thinking responsibility for outcomes which they cannot shirk. Which is something no organism in Darwin has done.

Your understanding of life (in the biological sense) is flawed. I don't want to go in circles either. You keep mentioning Darwin. Perhaps you think that the biological sciences stopped in 1859. Genetics is now pretty well understood. Gene expression is not. I provided you earlier with a link to a brief overview of emergent phenomena. I suggest you read it.

Spendius wrote:

Last night CBS News informed us that 1 in 3 Americans will die of Alzheimer's. Not long ago it was 1 in 3 from cancer.

Humans live long enough now to die of Alzheimer's and cancer. You might research senescence.

Spendius wrote:

The question remains--what justification does an educated atheist offer for bringing new life into a pointless world in the full knowledge of the risks to another?

I don't view the world as pointless. Why do you think that it is? I think that discovering a purpose in life is an existential question that you should attempt to answer yourself.
Personally I find it quite amazing to be a part of a universe becoming aware of itself. I also find great value in loving others and by extension loving all. I can't teach you how to love Spendi. I do suspect that you at least have something which you love. Expand from there.

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

I don't view the world as pointless.

Not only do I agree with the essence of what you are saying here, Matt...I think that the world (existence) is spectacular. Life is filled with all sorts of interesting things...and for some of us, it is fun.

To suggest, as Spendius has been doing lately, that it is something to be avoided if possible seems bizarre to me (at best.) Further down that path is "morbidly pessimistic"...without reaching the end.

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@Frank Apisa,

Spendius...if something has happened recently in your life to turn you so sour...why not share it with the group? Sometimes talking about a problem makes it more bearable. In any case, I do not remember you being this gloomy and glum. In fact, even though I consider you to be a bit pretentious, I've always seen you as a rather amiable sort.

What is the problem?

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@MattDavis,

spendi wrote,

Quote:

what justification does an educated atheist offer for bringing new life into a pointless world in the full knowledge of the risks to another?

Here's a theist who believes atheists bring new life into a pointless world.
spendi doesn't realize that billions of people do not believe in the same god he does, nor have they in history, or will in the future.

His opinions are specious in the worst of ways; they provide nothing of actual value or truth.

"All new life" isn't based on religion, culture, race, or ethnicity; it's based on animal sexuality. What anyone does with their life is restricted to one's genes and environment - not religion or atheism. Politics usually has more influence than religion in one's life.

Many of religious background commit suicide. Does that mean that their religion failed them because their life was pointless or had no future?

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@Setanta,

What do you believe is the solution to it all and why?

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Why on earth you guys think that a perfectly well known theoretical argument going back a very long time has anything to do with me personally astounds me.

Spengler discusses it at some length. Many educated people do. And have done. igm suggested the answer. Selfishness. Who cares who is handed a dose of senescence? I quoted Flaubert and Sterne on the matter.

Don't take it out on me because you can't handle it. Apisa's post is a ******* disgrace in respectable company. It's a fluffer's version of "are you off your meds?" There's even a cliche about it. A cradle is a tomb. With a weary world of woe in between.

And the educated classes do not reproduce themselves.

At least ci. mentions the "animal spirits". The thoughtless aspect. Which I have done.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

FBM wrote:

Teaching that there is an afterlife seems analogous to a doctor prescribing a placebo. It helps you deal with the certainty of death, but without doing anything to cure the condition. Some people need such placebos, others don't.

That's interesting FBM but can't it also be seen as the opposite i.e. that the results of non-virtuous karma cannot be avoided? So, it's not to help with death but a warning to the non-virtuous that death is no escape from the inevitable detrimental consequences and one should therefore abandon non-virtuous actions and purify one's view even if it takes apparently valuable time from the transient 'pleasures' of this life.

I think that's the Standard Model for people who believe in both karma and an afterlife, yes. But the former doesn't entail the latter.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

What do you believe is the solution to it all and why?

Maybe getting rid of all forms of psychosis that bring forth beliefs and start understanding that our thoughts are subjective and should not be believed as absolute truths. But wouldn't that be a utopia? We will always have people who believe in what they think regardless if they are theist or atheist. Smile

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@reasoning logic,

How could you get rid of "psychosis"? What person out there does any single action that is not predicated upon a belief? Seriously...If we got rid of every religion tomorrow, what do you think the world would be? How do you think that people would determine their actions? What person out there, (regardless of any religion that does not exist anymore) would not based any decision they have...on a belief that they have as an absolute truth? Whether it is true or not...And question everything you subjectively, and they subjectively think...with skepticism...Like you think everyone should?

To me, there does not seem to be this psychosis you and others claim...

I think there seems to be people who were rendered incapable of the instinctive ability to know what they think and believe and why they do...Who wish for others to try to validate why they think and believe the ways they do...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I didn't say that i had a "solution to it all," that's a typical straw man fallacy. Do you allege that any religion provides "a solution to it all?"

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

What person out there does any single action that is not predicated upon a belief?

Do you think that it is possible for people to assume, hypothesize or have ideas without believing them to be absolutes?

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@Setanta,

I am not up for this game of "me being incoherent" because you may not have 100% physically typed it specifically out...

Since you are an atheist, and reject beliefs or claims...and say that there are injustices, which we all know...and say that religion sets people up for prejudices...etc...

What do you think people who believe should do? And why do you think that they should? And why would this would be a solution?

Do you have none? Or do not care what they believe? Or are not interested in explaining any solutions because you never "physically" claimed you did or could?

Then it is my belief that no one should care about what you think about their beliefs, (even if you do not believe this, or have never said this...I am saying it, because I believe it)...because they seem to at least believe things because they care...and I believe you do not...

Now you can tell me what you believe and why, "validate" how I am wrong, since you do not believe...or walk away...

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Do you think that it is possible for people to assume, hypothesize or have ideas without believing them to be absolutes?

I absolutely do...but all these decisions are always beliefs...and one can only come to and understanding as to why they believe, or reject a belief, if they know they believe, know why they believe...and know why they reject to believe something, anything...

If they do not comply, then they are no different in anyway, even if they believe, or do not believe they are...

Because if they were, then they would explain why they believe that they are...and they can not explain how they do not believe that they are...and it is self-defeating...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

I absolutely do...but all these decisions are always beliefs.

Would you agree that this is a fair definition of belief?

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

I won't be playing your typical game. I answered your question, to extent that i pointed out that it is a straw man fallacy. You've just inserted another one. In that post i said nothing about your coherence or lack of it.

I asked you a question. You didn't answer it. I won't be answering any more of your questions until you have answered mine.

I will note, however, that you're doing again what you always do. You're trying to lump all atheists together as though they think alike and all see the world in the same way. That's not true for atheists, it's not true for theists, it's not true for people who play softball, it's not true for people who like to listen to jazz. You would dearly love to wrap "it all" up in a nice little package, wouldn't you.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Would you agree that this is a fair definition of belief?

Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true

Do you think that it is possible for people to assume, hypothesize or have ideas without believing them to be absolutes?

What do you think your personal opinion is to this third segment you asked me? And why do you think whatever you do?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

Do you think that it is possible for people to assume, hypothesize or have ideas without believing them to be absolutes?

Quote:

What do you think your personal opinion is to this third segment you asked me? And why do you think whatever you do?

I think that it is possible for some us to have ideas and have an understanding that we may have more evidence to back some of them more than others but do I think they should be believed as absolutes ? No, that would be like sticking your head in a gators mouth and believing nothing can happen.

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@FBM,

No, but a worthwhile result may be obtained by reflecting on the Buddha's intention... why did he teach karma and rebirth..? To put an end to dukkha presumably.. why would he teach something that had no efficacy and why would so many generation follow something that had no efficacy?

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Atheists... Your life is pointless

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