Atheists... Your life is pointless

@MattDavis,

Quote:

They honestly had a harder time dealing with my vegetarianism which started around age 15.

Now that's interesting. I don't know many members of fundamentalist bible churches that don't get very worked up when their child tells them they don't believe in God anymore.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

To better empathetically understand why some view forms of skepticism as more valid than faith itself...

I don't necessarily think that factual validity regarding faith is as important as the ethical implications a faith may or may not have for believers.
I have no interest in converting someone if they behave morally and are not disruptive to society.
I of course feel that in my own society animals are treated very poorly, however "fighting" people on it is not effective. Society is shifting in that direction anyway, triggering aggressive/defensive postures in people will not assist that.

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@Lola,

My parents were never married to each other.
My mom was the member of the fundamentalist church, she (in my opinion) needed it as a crutch to get through her divorce from an abusive husband (not my father). She left that church when I was about 12.
My father was never a fundamentalist Christian, he was a Methodist along with my stepmother. He was once my Sunday school teacher. He converted to Catholicism about 8 years ago.

Their reaction was not unconcerned. I was a very independent strong willed young man. They had bigger fish to fry in terms of life circumstances and other children.

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

I don't necessarily think that factual validity regarding faith is as important as the ethical implications a faith may or may not have for believers.
I have no interest in converting someone if they behave morally and are not disruptive to society.
I of course feel that in my own society animals are treated very poorly, however "fighting" people on it is not effective. Society is shifting in that direction anyway, triggering aggressive/defensive postures in people will not assist that.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant in one part of my post mate...I think you are 100% correct that faith is not about factual validity...

I think faith has no point otherwise...

What I meant is I was curious as to why an atheist would personally think that factual validity or evidence and such would be a greater aspect to them then faith itself could be...

Because to me personally even evidence is subjective to the person who decides to provide something as evidence, and I think it takes a leap of faith to provide something as evidence, and I think that for others to accept something as a fact would require a leap of faith as well...

I agree with every thing else you have stated mate...

Truth is I am not the best example at times and I know this...but I do agree that what you have said is true, and I do not like losing my cool...and try to work hard, maybe not hard enough to change this flaw of mine...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:

Quote:
An atheistic purpose of life is whatever each individual atheist intends it to be. You oughta ask one of them. I am not an atheist.

I think that this is a very accurate statement from the outside looking in...That is why I have a hard time in understanding exactly how it is not the same as following a theism/theology...in ways different than just a study of God(s)...

I think there is one common association in atheism, and then it is totally self dependent just like theism's are...

Atheists is a name given to people who do everything the Same as you or any religious person and perhaps, have never been taught religious beliefs or had a religion and changed their way of looking at the facts and perceive them as false and consequently, are not afraid, or in awe of something ... they don't need or want to understand. Exactly the same way you... look at the way that Atheistic think .

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

No one is ever a perfect example of anything.
I'm no angel. No one is. You strive for improvement, that's all anyone can do. Don't take my word for what you should or shouldn't do, though. I am no guru either. Very Happy

Regarding knowledge:
All knowledge must make basic assumptions, you might call this faith. I do hold those assumptions as always tentative, however, and subject to modification if warranted.

On a practical level, you can't go about your day with your head in the clouds though, so you need some heuristics for making quick decisions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic
These are sort of the ethical short hand for basic decisions.
Usually don't steal. Usually don't kill. Usually don't lie... etc.
The heuristics are there so that not every decision is a dilemma. They are the rules that usually work.
Sometimes however a decision has to be broken down to first principles.
Should I kill to protect someone else?
Should I steal to protect someone from killing (for instance an animal)?
Should I lie to protect someone from harm?
In those cases you may have to break the situation down to first principles.

I think we talked about this a bit regarding my interpretation of Christ's message regarding principles vs. OT Laws on your thread.

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@MattDavis,

Yes mate we have...And I do see the value in those perspectives, I think we talked about your experience with a choice between death to save an animal from suffering?...and I see it through, and I totally agree with your tough decision you had to make...for instance...I do understand and see validity to a white lie...And to further discuss what we began in the other thread...I could even make the case using religion that it is easy to see why from a religious aspect Jesus came down and was more interested in promoting faith than what the Jewish law proclaimed was the ways for salvation/atonement etc...by the laws alone...I know there were many different things that the Jews had done or performed that they considered were atonement to breaking the laws...but what I am getting at, is that it seems to me that Jesus understood that salvation strictly through laws alone would not be possible, as everyone breaks laws, and it is impossible to keep them all...I don't mean to ramble off on a tangent but I just wanted to point out things I think are along those moral dilemma lines...but like we have also discussed before as well, I do believe that actions are important, and do not agree with some of the contortion that happens in which it is rationalized that it makes no difference what you do (action wise) as long as you have faith...I think that even if this is correct...I do not think that Jesus would be pleased at these mentalities people have...because it clearly is not seeing the big picture fully...

I have to be honest, that if a God exists like I think one does...I am not so sure that any faith or religion is completely correct...

I actually see many different rays of light from many different ones that others do not offer...culminating God himself...

But the thing is, is that I have to also admit that if a God does exist, I would have to say that I think Christianity is the closest, and the reason why I follow that faith is simply because of the whole notion of a savior...

I don't mean to be brash, but in terms of theism's...From all the studying I have done on them...I think a faith without a savior is a bit empty is certain ways...

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

We are born able to adapt and we procreate.

But we are also born with knowledge and so we are forced to choose whether to adapt or to procreate. Other organisms have no choice. They are, as Descartes said, machines. The idea being developed by La Mettrie and, more extensively, by de Sade. And then studied by behaviourists.

Do atheists necessarily see humans as machines?

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

I have to be honest, that if a God exists like I think one does...I am not so sure that any faith or religion is completely correct...

Was this an honest comment...or is it something you thought is necessary in order to keep credibility in this discussion?

If it is an honest comment...if it is something you will stand as true from this point on...I would like to comment on something you asked earlier of someone else...about the value of skepticism versus "faith."

If it was offered just to maintain credibility, I'll pass.

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@Frank Apisa,

Ask your question/make your comment if you honestly want to ask it/post it...

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

But the thing is, is that I have to also admit that if a God does exist, I would have to say that I think Christianity is the closest, and the reason why I follow that faith is simply because of the whole notion of a savior...

That is very astute Spade. If one does accept that the world is wicked you would have the need for a savior. It has to do with how one views the world/universe/reality. Is observable reality "good" or "bad"?

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
We are born able to adapt and we procreate.

But we are also born with knowledge and so we are forced to choose whether to adapt or to procreate. Other organisms have no choice. They are, as Descartes said, machines. The idea being developed by La Mettrie and, more extensively, by de Sade. And then studied by behaviourists.

Do atheists necessarily see humans as machines?

Don't isolate this from what I said. Machines is your peculiar addition and not at all related to my words.

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@edgarblythe,

We all know that spendi has great imagination, and loves to include them in his "opinions" whether they are relevant or not.

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@XXSpadeMasterXX,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5272077)
Ask your question/make your comment if you honestly want to ask it/post it...

Well, Spade...in the quoted comment, you mentioned:

Quote:

I have to be honest, that if a God exists like I think one does.

If you truly are being honest there, I am willing to engage you.

But elsewhere I have seen you indicate that you KNOW a GOD exists...and you communicate directly with that GOD.

If that is the case, I don't want to bother discussing this issue with you. The moment a theist asserts that he/she KNOWS there is a GOD...the discussion is not worthwhile.

So...where you being honest when you indicated some doubt?

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

Quote:
Re: XXSpadeMasterXX (Post 5272268)
Quote:
But the thing is, is that I have to also admit that if a God does exist, I would have to say that I think Christianity is the closest, and the reason why I follow that faith is simply because of the whole notion of a savior...

That is very astute Spade. If one does accept that the world is wicked you would have the need for a savior. It has to do with how one views the world/universe/reality. Is observable reality "good" or "bad"?

Not sure of your reasoning here, Matt. Even if the world is "wicked"...why would there be a need for a savior? And who would the savior save you from...except itself?

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

That is very astute Spade. If one does accept that the world is wicked you would have the need for a savior. It has to do with how one views the world/universe/reality. Is observable reality "good" or "bad"?

I agree Matt. But I see no evidence that the world or human beings are innately wicked. It seems to me that we have evidence that human beings are capable of both good and bad. All the more reason I don't feel I need a god. I am responsible for what I do or don't do. That's what's required for me to live in such a way that the world I live in is a workable, forgiving and pleasant enough place to make all the loss and grieving worth it.

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Bishop Burnet, writing to a friend, reported that King Charles II had a strange notion of god's love. He reported that Charles had said that "The only things that God hates are that we be wicked and that we design mischief." I'm sure the good Bishop had a much longer list of the things which god hates.

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@Lola,

Thanks Lola Very Happy

And I agree.

I was not suggesting the world is wicked, I am merely evaluating the tacit assumptions in some theologies. Many religious views assume a wicked or at least inferior status for "reality". We (humans) seem to have a persistent striving for ideals/heaven/nirvana.
Deliver us from evil.
Escape from suffering.
Platonic ideals.

Your comment reminds me of Hamlet Act II, scene 2 (not to quote scipture or anything) Wink

Hamlet wrote:

Why, then, ’tis none to you, for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.

Rosencrantz wrote:

Why then, your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for your mind.

Hamlet wrote:

O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams.

Guildenstern wrote:

Which dreams indeed are ambition, for the very substance of the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.

Hamlet wrote:

A dream itself is but a shadow.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

As you are probably guessing by now, I am not particularly interested in the considerations of philosophers on questions like this. I prefer hearing what you think…or Spade thinks…or Setanta, Izzy, igm…or any of the others.

Was this an honest comment...or is it something you thought is necessary in order to keep credibility in this discussion?

What credibility do you think I may be trying to keep? And what credibility do you think I may have lost?

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@MattDavis,

Quote:

I don't understand. Why even bother interacting with someone who by all accounts, at least this thread, has demonstrated no willingness to participate in discussion.

Yes. Setanta wants to piss on the leg of anyone who invades his territory.
Don't let him.
One little click... [ignore user].

You are just feeding into his tantrums, and the cost to everyone else is seeing one half of a childish debate.
I would like to see this thread return to the actual subject at hand.

You would like to see this thread return to the actual subject at hand but shouldn't we consider what we have learned from those who we have disagreed with?

I can only share my observations with you which are only approximations of reality so please keep in mind that they have flaws and I invite any corrections to my understandings. Smile

I will attempt to cover a few topics here even though I may fail I will still share how I see it.

If we were to research those who we think may be hateful what is it about them that we can find logical consistencies about their behavior?

Have they ever empathically said they were sorry and did not mean to hurt the feelings of another? have they ever asked for forgiveness?
Maybe this means nothing to you but would it mean that they shows signs of being emphatically sterile if they never have but yet posted thousands of threads?

I am not saying anything empirical but rather asking others to consider for themselves.

If we were to observe that someone has never done this should we have empathy toward them as if they were a snake and never meant to harm us but rather were being who they are? should we ignore them because they are blind to empathy?

On another note I have found what Izzy has shared in other threads deserving merit. He has acknowledge that it is not atheism or theism but what people do with it that hurts us all.
You should all know very well that their are atheist and theist that would not mean any of harm but there are some that could.

When I think of creation I think that this bible quote got it correct and was wondering if anyone would like to prove me wrong?

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It is because of words, that we have everything that has been created by the concepts that we have constructed using what logic we possess. If you can think of anything that was not created by a word please feel free to let me know. Very Happy

1 Reply

Atheists... Your life is pointless

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