92
   

Atheists... Your life is pointless

 
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:44 am
@Zardoz,
Thanks for your perspective.
As one who actually lived through the experience of being in a pseudo-Christian religious cult as a child, I feel obligated to point out to you that there are some defining characteristic of a cult and that in general most religious faiths do not meet those criteria.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/identifying-a-cult
Equating religion to cultism is not fair to religion or to survivors of cults.
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 08:58 am
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Thanks for the words of wisdom.
It is a struggle for me.
I feel the need to "rescue" someone from their vices, but by attempting the rescue I was indulging the vice.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:01 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank in one study over four thousand priest were involved in child molestation and thousands more were involved in the cover up to keep the molesters safe. The study did show that priests did not offend and any higher rate than the general population but while the general population is more likely to molest girls the priests were far more likely to molest boys, priests molests boys 80% of the time girls 20% of the time.

All of the priests years of religious training made no difference in molestation. There was no improvement in their morals when it came to taking advantage of their helpless victims. Given a choice between follow their religious teaching and molesting children they chose to molest over and over again. But the real problem was the thousands of other priests, bishops and cardinals who enabled this to go on “for the good of the cult.” It shows a mindset that the reputation of the cult was far more important than any amount of children.

The priests may have abused children and adults but the adults had much more of a chance to fight back.

Frank do you see any shades of gray in child molestation? If there is something black or white in our society it is child molestation. I for one cannot see any situation where molesting a child would be the right thing to do. Certainly an argument could be made for stealing if your children were starving to death but molesting never.
I am the Catholic Church worst nightmare. I am what they thought would happen if they could not keep all the child molesters safe and protected. By showing the general public that the religious façade is just something they put on like their vestments.

The 4,000 priests in the study are just the ones who were caught a typical rapist may rape 200 times before he is caught so problem is far bigger than what is showing on paper. This puts parents and others guardians on notice that a priest should never under any circumstances be allowed to be alone with a child and never behind closed doors his religious training from the seminary might kick in.

Your attitude shows a typical attitude that religious cults should never be criticzied no matter what happened.
Zardoz
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:14 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy all of those wild allegations and exaggerations come from actual grand jury transcripts and studies of the molesting priests. You simply cannot make the argument that religion is responsible for morality as they have no problem resorting to murder and torture when left to their own devices. The idea that religious cults are responsible for morality is an illusion kept afloat by religious cults.
MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:21 am
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
.... a typical rapist may rape 200 times before he is caught ....

Do you have a source for this statistic?

Zardoz wrote:
I am the Catholic Church worst nightmare.

I think a stronger case for that title could be made for Martin Luther.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:31 am
@MattDavis,
Quote:
I think a stronger case for that title could be made for Martin Luther.


I agree and hope that logical reasoning may out do him in the near future.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:41 am
@Zardoz,
If what you say is true, point out a source that is not pushing an agenda like Hitchens. If a reputable news organisation like the BBC or CNN states the majority of priests were kiddy fiddlers, I'll take your allegations seriously. So far the only source you've mentioned is Hitchens and he's not a reliable source in this respect. We have only your word that these allegations come from grand jury transcripts.

I'll repeat that what the Catholic Church got up to as detailed by reputable news organisations was bad enough. You don't need to exaggerate, it's like saying Hitler used to drown cats. What he did was bad enough, no exaggeration needed.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:50 am
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:
Izzy why is that religious cult members throughout history have always felt it was their right to execute others who did not believe as they believed? That has to tell you something about religious cults in general.


That's not something confined to religious cults. The Holocaust is a prime example of that.



Zardoz wrote:
Tell me was there any difference between the torturing and burning at the stake of nonbelievers and eugenics? Eugenics is not a product of reason. Criminal actions are never a product of reason but lack of reason.


Either you're being naive or wilfully ignoring evidence that doesn't fit in with your notions of an Atheist utopia.

Quote:
Following the establishment of the Eugenics Education Society, enthusiasm for eugenics crossed national boundaries and it promoted an international discourse on the relationship between the quality and quantity of population.

Eugenists believed that modern economies encouraged undesirable — ‘dysgenic’ — differential birth rates by facilitating the survival of ‘unfit’ mental and moral defectives, the chronic sick, residual idlers, recidivist criminals, and the unemployable. The productive had to bear ever greater tax burdens in order to support the growing numbers of degenerates, and higher fiscal exactions naturally persuaded the prudent middle classes to go in for practices of family limitation. Declining fertility amongst the professional and middle classes, rising birth rates amongst the working classes, and massive reproductive surges amongst the ‘lumpenproletariat’ — the unemployed and unemployable — had to be corrected in order to avoid race suicide.

The self-appointed mission of eugenics was to protect ‘the unborn’ through a programme of selective breeding. Positive eugenics aimed to achieve racial improvement by encouraging the fit to breed, while the goal of negative eugenics was to prevent breeding amongst the unfit. In Britain, Europe, and the US, eugenic reformers advocated marriage regulation, sequestration of the mentally deficient, and sterilization— voluntary or compulsory — of the unfit. Methods for controlling human reproduction and directing demographic change were applied, however, in different ways in different national contexts.

Before World War I eugenists in Britain concentrated on obtaining the sequestration of the ‘feebleminded’, which included the mentally retarded, alcoholics, and women who had more than one illegitimate pregnancy. British eugenists also advocated voluntary and compulsory sterilization for various social categories, and some flirted with the idea of the ‘lethal chamber’ for ridding society of its unwanted; this idea had its most profound expression in Germany in the inter-war period. In Germany and elsewhere, however, negative eugenics can be seen to have accommodated rather than invented a set of political goals whose origins had a much broader cultural base.



http://www.answers.com/topic/eugenics


Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 09:53 am
@Zardoz,
Let me start at the end of your comments, Zardoz.

Quote:
Your attitude shows a typical attitude that religious cults should never be criticzied no matter what happened.


That does not logically follow from what I have said...and if my posts during the last 15 years are considered, I am one of the last in this forum to be charged as having "an attitude that religious cults should never be criticized no matter what happened."

Fact is, I often criticize them for a lot worse than this serious matter.

So you are fundamentally off-base regarding me...and my intentions in what I wrote.

Quote:
I am the Catholic Church worst nightmare.


If it makes you feel good...or powerful to suppose that...fine. But I seriously doubt YOU are the Catholic Church's worst nightmare...and by a considerable margin.

Quote:
Frank do you see any shades of gray in child molestation? If there is something black or white in our society it is child molestation. I for one cannot see any situation where molesting a child would be the right thing to do. Certainly an argument could be made for stealing if your children were starving to death but molesting never.
I am the Catholic Church worst nightmare. I am what they thought would happen if they could not keep all the child molesters safe and protected. By showing the general public that the religious façade is just something they put on like their vestments.


I try not to see any moral or ethical considerations in black and white, Zardoz…although this particular issue is a tough one. Anyone who truly “molests” a young person is reprehensible…and I have little problem with the strongest of penalties. But “molestation” has shades of meaning no matter how much you suggest that cannot be. There are those who suggest “sexual harassment” is black and white…but I can see times where there are gray areas. I have heard of instances where “sexual harassment” charges were shown to be problematic…and I have little doubts there are instances where “molestation” are problematic also.

In any case, I agree with your scorn of individuals like priests, teachers, or ministers who use their power over young people to satisfy sexual needs.

Your opinions about people who try to protect an institution do not ring the same bell with me. I am generally in agreement…but I also try to understand the people who do the protecting saying in their defense that if they didn’t some would come along to use the frailties of a relative few to tar the many.

That, Zardoz, is what I see you doing. Your zealotry seems TO ME to be motivated as much by hatred of the institution as from revulsion of the conduct.

I reaffirm my original comments:

You are painting with much too broad a brush…and you really need more than just black and white on your palette.

In this discussion, you are essentially traveling the road best not traveled. Ease back a bit…you might do the argument you are tying to make more good.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:00 am
@tenderfoot,
tenderfoot wrote:
I didn't ask you agree with me -- Takes a snake oil salesperson to know one - as you say your the expert on old bible bollocks .. Also proves that your'e a no 1 in Dawkins scale.. and you don't deny this... seems you outdo me for Morons-manship


Anyone who thinks that only a tub thumping Bible basher would disagree with the ridiculous notion that Britain is about to be subject to Shariah Law is an idiot. I have no idea about what Dawkins' scale is, and I'm not interested in anything that particular bigot has to say about anything.

If someone lives in a fantasy world with ludicrous ideas about dark skinned people imposing their views on the rest of the country, those people should be treated with contempt. It's based on prejudice and hysteria, not reasoning.

You're a hysterical, ignorant bigot, and I'm not going to waste any more time on you. I've not got any time for morons, or bigots for that matter.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 10:40 am
@izzythepush,
hear hear...
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 11:00 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy wrote:
I have no idea about what Dawkins' scale is, and I'm not interested in anything that particular bigot has to say about anything.

I agree that Dawkins has his prejudices and an axe to grind, but I think you might find the scale in someway helpful.
Perhaps helpful in avoiding framing things in the "black and white" of athiest and believer. I believe Frank has pointed out how problematic that may be. It provides at least 7 colors to work with instead of 2 or 3.
Maybe even worth a look, in that it is in the current lexicon of apologetics and ecumenical movements.
http://able2know.org/topic/62055-277#post-5251388
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 12:17 pm
@MattDavis,
I'm sorry, but I have no time for evangelicals regardless of their persuasion. I've met and worked with people from many different faiths, (Southampton is a very multicultural city), and it's clear, people are never going to be of the same opinion regarding faith. The best thing to do is to promote tolerance between groups, as long as they don't preach hate I don't care what anyone believes. The problem is extremists who are convinced they're right, and in that respect Dawkins is no different from George W Bush.

Politics, now that's completely different.
MattDavis
 
  2  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 01:04 pm
@izzythepush,
Not an endorsement of for Dawkin's stance on atheism or theism!!!

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I have no time for evangelicals regardless of their persuasion.
In which group you and I would both class Dawkins.
Quote:
The best thing to do is to promote tolerance between groups, as long as they don't preach hate I don't care what anyone believes.

This is I think the goal of ecumenical movements as well.
Those ecumenical movements have found that his (Dawkin's) one simple tool helpful to their discourse.
Quote:
...and in that respect Dawkins is no different from George W Bush

Well... if George W. Bush created a classification system that made talking about peace in Israel or peace in Afghanistan easier, I would at least bother a look at it.

This's my only point.
Ironically, the Dawkin's scale is a tool better suited to tolerance than to evangelism. Very Happy
Lola
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 02:02 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The best thing to do is to promote tolerance between groups, as long as they don't preach hate I don't care what anyone believes.


I agree issy, only I would add other coercive techniques, most certainly the use of guilt through preoccupation with absolute right and wrong behaviors. I also appreciate it if they leave me alone unless I've willingly entered into a discussion. People develop a sense of self and security in various ways. I prefer to let others see it their way if they let me see it mine. Only under these circumstances can productive discussion exist. Many people use religion in a productive enough way to make it valuable and necessary for peace. And they use it for more than just a lady protecting her reputation. Although, I suppose that's a valid enough use if necessary. I prefer to protect my reputation by taking care of myself. I don't need an excuse to say no. And I sure don't need an excuse to say yes either.

But if some people like Spendi value
Quote:
complex concatenation of concupiscent conveniences contained and concentrated in the conjunction of a pious and estimable lady of renown and virtue
who is to say that they should give it up? As long as it's not used as an excuse for the devaluation of a non-religious woman...........not to say that it is, of course.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 02:04 pm
@MattDavis,
Alright, I've checked it out. Sorry I didn't realise it was one of your posts. I suppose it's a useful(ish) tool, but it's also quite narrow in that it equates belief in a hereafter with a belief in a God or gods. What of those who believe in the immortality of the soul but don't believe in God or gods?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 02:07 pm
@Lola,
Lolaessense wrote:
I agree issy, only I would add other coercive techniques, most certainly the use of guilt through preoccupation with absolute right and wrong behaviors.


To quote Burroughs again.

Quote:
We have observed that most of the trouble in the world has been caused by ten to twenty percent of folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus.
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 02:33 pm
Tolerance can have negative effects. Too much of it leads to so many religions that religion no longer exists. Tolerance was the principle religious value of the Pagans and they ended up with, at the last count I saw, 30,000 gods. Which is the equivalent of no god.

Monotheism was invented to put an end to the state of play the Pagans endured. The communist atheists can hardly claim to have been tolerant.

And it is a word, which can have so many meanings, it ends up like the Pagan gods. i.e. meaningless. Like a crumb from a cake.

Subsidiarity within a fairly fixed set of rules is more useful. A bit like the US Constitution, the dogmas of which are fairly intolerantly supervised by SCOTUS. (see gun control debate) and less intolerantly at the street level.

I will agree though that using the word indulgently can produce a rosy glow of self-satisfaction because everybody is in favour of toleration.

That's the trouble.
0 Replies
 
MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 02:49 pm
@izzythepush,
I agree that it is narrow in that it doesn't differentiate amongst different types of theism or amongst different types of non-theism.

Now I don't mean this in a pejorative sense toward theism,
but to classify all the different possible beliefs regarding the nature of a deity/deities would require much more content than is in the periodic table of elements. Maybe building such tables could show us some patterns among the possible beliefs.
I think such a classification may be useful, but it would be a heavy burden for someone to have to memorize a periodic table of God(s).

Now I don't mean this in a pejorative sense toward non-theism,
but to classify all the different possible beliefs regarding the nature of being would also require much more content than is in the periodic table of elements. Maybe building such tables could show us some patterns among the possible beliefs.
I think such a classification may be useful, and it is the heavy burden taken on by those seeking an explanation without the postulates of theism.

MattDavis
 
  1  
Sat 16 Feb, 2013 03:12 pm
@MattDavis,
I think that if the patterns that emerge from an assumption of theism
correspond with the patterns that emerge from an assumption of non-theism
then this may imply an a convergence on "reality".
Perhaps this would only imply that the nature of assumption leads to certain patterns, and in some sense we could call that nature "reality".
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Atheism - Discussion by littlek
American Atheists Barred from holding Office - Discussion by edgarblythe
Richard Dawkins doesn't exist! - Question by Jay2know
The New State Religion: Atheism - Question by Expert2
Is Atheism the New Age Religion? - Question by Expert2
Critical thinking on the existence of God - Discussion by Susmariosep
Are evolution and the big bang true? - Discussion by Johnjohnjohn
To the people .. - Question by Johnjohnjohn
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 11/25/2024 at 09:35:47