@XXSpadeMasterXX,
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:I took it that way, because you left out Atheists in your past descriptions...
I was trying to use a generalization to include both sides. Not speaking directly at you or accusing you directly of it but being more general towards both sides of the issue.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
But again, and this is why I took insult...You neglected to mention how or why a theist would be pissed off at an atheist...and why?
I was only giving one example, but there are many examples from both sides. Theists can object or not like comments from atheists from very simple statements to very in depth ones.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
I will give you an example, and you tell me if you agree or not??
If an atheist, Plays the tactic of I am not certain of a non-existent God...Then they clearly, are not (by definition, a person of lack of faith) they are someone who is almost sure, But have the smallest amount of faith in them...If they come on here, and proclaim that (above) then they are trying to reject things, rather than being open to accepting them...Can you see why a theist would take insult in saying these things?? Because it just shows that most atheists, are just worried about themselves?? Not about an atheist society, nor for progressing humanity...They could easily explain what they are looking for theists to buy into but don't...So can you see why a theist would take that as an insult of intelligence, by the game, or tactic they are playing??
Well a lot of people want truth backed with evidence before they will accept something to be true. Claims that have no basis backed with evidence are too easy to manipulate others with. What happens is you have theology mixed in why mythology but it goes dangerously beyond that.
People start to murder others for not accepting the theology. Crimes go unpunished imposed on others for simply not believing. These crimes are shrugged off and blamed on the people and say the theology is innocent and played no role in those unjust murders. I object, if it weren't for the fuel of the theology to begin with they wouldn't have motivation to murder in the name of the theology. Would there still be senseless killing, probably, but not on the scales there were with many religiously motivated wars and crimes.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
I will acknowledge this...It just that we probably disagree on what reality truly is...
Reality is that which can be demonstrable.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
If you give me time, I can probably name 5 more that do not fit in your 5 below...
More than likely your example will fall into one of the five.
Krumple wrote:1. The god knows better than me, so what I assume to be better, is in fact not better. What it has chosen to do is a better solution.
(I object to this reasoning because "better" is only seen in the perspective of that god but two groups are involved, us and that god. So it must be better for both groups and as I see it, I don't feel it as better to hide. It would solve so many problems to reveal itself undeniably. So better is only relative to that god which doesn't solve the problem. It would have to understand this to be true.)
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
This is what I believe is the truth...If God ultimately knows what is better, than what makes you or anyone think that his revelation is the best thing possible?? What if that means Condemnation to ones...What if that means the end to certain people who (in his true profoundness knows) that delaying time for them is the best thing possible, so we are here to have freedom, but are soldiers for ones who will be tormented forever? If he revealed himself now, would they accept him? and if they did not, (like you said with free will) would there be any possible way than condemnation?? Maybe a final battle verse other life forms? Because as it exists right now, condemnation doesn't have to be that way...
The problem is, more will be lost than excepted because of not revealing. This is the reality if it were true as you point out. There will be more who get rejected/sent to hell/ignored what ever the result of not accepting than those who make it. This means more people were created damned than saved which means the method was flawed and this god would have to be aware of his statistical fact.
Krumple wrote:2. It has revealed itself yet for some reason some people can't see it.
(If this is the case then it wasn't a very good method of revealing. It needs to be undeniable. I am more than willing to accept the existence of said being if I have enough reason to believe it is a undeniable reality, but so far there is not even a shred to suggest that one does. This god would have to know what would convince me yet does not provide that information.)
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
This is possible, Maybe in order to see this God, you must embrace faith...and there is no other way to seeing him...This is as real as it gets...You can not get any deeper than totally denying yourself, and turning your life to a God...therefor, he would not destroy free will, not bring an end to unsaved souls...Everyone can find him, if they look...Freedom to do as we please, but accept him to wipe out sins...And maybe not one is ever lost....
Faith is useless, it gets you absolutely no where. All it does is says you believe something with absolutely no good reason to do so. You have nothing else to base your belief on. Nothing else in your life do you behave in this way yet when it comes to theology you do. Why? Faith is not good enough for me and if there is a god, it would know this about me to be true for me. Faith might be good enough for you, but it isn't enough for me. This god would know this and if faith is all it is willing to supply me with, the it's method of reaching me is flawed.
That is not my fault. I shouldn't have to compromise my very nature to accept something without anything to support it with. If I were to honestly do this, then every thing that comes around I would have to accept on the very same basis or else I am being hypocritical. I would have to accept ALL religions to be true cause how else can you determine which is true and which is not if faith is the only deciding factor?
Krumple wrote:3. There is no god to begin with and that is why none have revealed themselves.
(more than likely the case.)
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Possible...But there are billions of people who are believing into something that is not real...almost 70-80% accept some kind of God...Would humans as a species really be that dumb??
Yes. The numbers of believers plays no role in the truth of the belief. There are millions of buddhists, does that mean that buddhism is a little less true than christianity? It is silly to use numbers of believers to be the justification for belief.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
You, said that aliens exist, but not like people think? what do you think they look like? Do you believe they are more advanced then we are? If so, why would they not try to contact us, like we do to them, and they explain how much bullshit it is, or isn't and why? in other words, (by your theory's) if God is not willing to act, why wouldn't another life form do it? if they are out there? (that is if you think they are advanced)
More than likely if there is life in the universe outside the earth it will be non space flight orientated. I could be wrong but I bet the intelligent life similar to us will probably be in another galaxy. Perhaps 1 space faring civilization per galaxy is my guess. The rest of life will be "lesser" life forms like animals, insects, plants or bacteria. The technology needed to travel between galaxies would be astronomical and I just don't think it is plausible nor worth while for a civilization to make such journeys. It would take an incredible amount of time to travel to another galaxy let alone pick out the earth as a destination.
Krumple wrote:4. The god is incapable of revealing itself for some reason. It would want to but something either restricts it from doing so or if doing so would cause everything to destruct.
(another option that is plausible but points out fundamental draw backs to this gods existence then. If it is incapable of doing so then it is not all powerful. If by doing so it destroys the universe then it once again is not all powerful to prevent the destruction. )
Not plausible to me...If by an ending, than I agree, just read above...But I do not believe a God would be limited...It would destroy the notion of a God(s)...[/quote]
I think this is what you tell yourself and many theists do because it does not support their desired idealistic view of a god. To me when you shrug it off it means you don't care about the possibilities because you already know what you want a god to be like. I am trying to be realistic by providing possibilities for explanations as to why it would or would not do something.
There can't be an infinite amount of reasons and there can not be one that is beyond my comprehension. If there is a reason or explanation that I am just not capable of understanding then the whole point is meaningless and should not be acceptable. Just as if there was an unjust law that I simply could not uphold because it is unrealistic, such as not breathing on wednesdays. It makes no sense to claim a god has reasons beyond my comprehensions. If that is the case then I would automatically not be subject to the consequences of it's reasoning.
[quote"Krumple"]5. It does not want to or wish to, it could reveal itself but chooses not to because it does not care to do so.
(This one is plausible but it has a lot of baggage with it. Of course theists would never accept this as being a case because they only support the concept that a god cares about it's creation and can't fathom one who would be indifferent to it. Just like every five year old human loves their ant farms.)[/quote]
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
I do not believe this is real at allr...there is a better chance at no God than this...It does not make a lot of sense...First it would limit God...two, it would have led most of us astray for no purpose whatsoever, three it would be one sadistic, sick fucked up God to do that...which no scripture depicts this...So I would never believe this as plausible...the ONLY way it is plausible is if God, were truly what the Bible calls the Devil, and no God to counteract that...
But why does it not become a possibility? Could it not be possible that there is no loving god but in fact the creator is a vindictive child like devil who actually created the universe to watch beings suffer in the misery it created for them? Is that so far out side the realm of possibilities? This reveals to me that you refuse to accept it as being plausible that you don't want it to be a possibility because you have decided how you want god to be.
If you read the bible the way in which I did, it doesn't seem to support a loving, caring, compassionate one. I see a lot of senseless smiting and cruelty for no reason. If the very notion of christianity is built upon cruelty, a god sacrificing itself through a blood offering to void out a rule that it created. That is not pleasant or appealing in the least bit. Yet people talk about it as if it were some wonderful thing. It is no wonder why christians support violent movies but how dare you show two people having sex. Christiantiy is built upon violence and that is why violence is acceptable in the christian world view.
[quote'Krumple"]Hell I believe aliens exist but I don't believe they are visiting earth. I have absolutely no proof that alien life exists yet I believe there is alien life in the universe some where other than on planet earth. It is not however flying in space ships and abducting humans or mutating cows. [/quote]
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
What do you believe they are, and look like?? What do you think/believe of what people here say about what we call aliens??
More than likely they are nothing like us at all. They might not even have eyes or they have dozens of eyes. They might not even have limbs like us or they have dozens of limbs. They might not have hair or they could be covered with it. In other words I bet if they do exist they are NOTHING like us. They will be so drastically different they will live up to the definition of alien.
[quote"Krumple"]There are just WAY too many stars and planets in the universe even in our galaxy to assume that earth is the ONLY place life has arisen. I am certain one day we will discover life on another planet other than earth. It might not be within my life time, I hope that it will but more than likely won't. The odds are just too great to say earth is the only place were life exists in the entire universe.
This idea that life could exist on other planets poses a problem for theists. Especially for christians. If there were intelligent life on other planets then why would a god single out earth to send itself to? Would every intelligent life civilization in the universe get it's own jesus? If that were the case what is so bad about explaining that other life exists in the universe?[/quote
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
]No to their own Jesus...
What if aliens are demonic?
See your response here makes me feel shame for humanity. What if aliens showed up tomorrow but all the christians of the world hold this same view as you. That they are in some way evil or demons. This is such a sad out look and it could provoke something that is unnecessary. There will be witch burnings again but this time it will be a alien life form. How sad of a day and makes me not want them to ever reveal themselves until christianity is put into check.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
that is why it is never explained...and is part of the final battle, where the devil uses his army to wage war against us?? therefor, humans actually unite...and defeat them...not one human is lost...they are cast down...Jesus is a man, and only one Jesus, other life exists...But humans are above them all...
If you honestly believe what you say here, then I feel up most pity for humanity and the people who think like this. It is scary to think you have reasoned this out to be a rational explanation and necessary out come.
Krumple wrote:Why would the bible not clearly state that there are other planets with life on them? This god would have to know that eventually we would discover it in time. So why not beat us to the punch and mention it? The fact that it doesn't reveals something about those who wrote the bible. They only seem to write about the things that happen within a ten mile radius of where the bible has thought to come from.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Read above...If true the Bible describes things in Revelations that truly show that God is all powerful and knowing, and it goes far beyond a ten mile radius that you proposed...I am trying to interpret the whole thing...if you would like me to...I will p.m. you the first 5 chapters of revelation in an understanding current with our language skills...
No thanks. I am very familiar with it. However; you do realize that revelation as it currently is being proselytized is a new spin on it? The problem is revelations is written in such a poetic form that it can be interpreted in many different ways but christians refuse to acknowledge this because they are certain they are right without giving any yield that they might be over stepping their ability to understand the text was written by nomads.
Krumple wrote:The science in the bible seems to be very primitive and in many cases it's flat out wrong or mistaken. The same is true with the koran despite the fact that theists try to claim otherwise. If science is so wrong, why are they struggling to inject it into their religious documents so desperately? Why on one hand they outright reject science that conflicts with their religion and on the other hand accept it if they can find passages that seem to mimic scientific discoveries? Or if they can bend certain passages to make them sound scientific.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
I am not sure who you are referring to who does this??
It is a generalization and observation.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
You cant use science to disprove a God, and you can not use science to destroy a God, or religion...it is that simple...
You are right, education will do the work. It is a matter of the theists to educate themselves to realize their theology is the problem.
Krumple wrote:A bible or a koran if it were an actual work of an actual god it would not require apologetic. It should be the best read. However; it is a horrible read and horribly put together. I would imagine that if a god were behind a book that it would be so appealing to read that I would want to read it all the time. It's far from it. Sure there are people who try to claim that it is a great read but they only cherry pick it for statements they repeat over and over and ignore all the other garbage that shows it to be horrible.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Maybe that is because certain things that were done are what we call horrible...and it is best that we learn from them...and do not do likewise?? Tests to become prudent...this gives the Bible credibility, for God is being truthful on all accounts, he is not whitewashing **** he knew we would pick up on...and the ultimate goal is to accept faith to find him...
Actually you mistook my meaning here. I mean the bible is literally a horrible read. I would have thought a god would have the magical ability to make the book pleasant and appealing like a great novel yet it is a miserable experience to go through and difficult for many to even undertake because it is so horribly compiled. A god would have had to known this to be a result. Yet did nothing to circumvent it?
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
If the Bible, or Qur'an were written to appease us people it is flat out fake...Which is what Islamic's are doing now...Which is why I do not believe that Islam is from the same divine being as the Torah, and Christian Bible...and I actually think that Mohammed, is the One False Prophet mentioned in the Christian Bible in Revelation...
This is where ALL of the worlds problems come from. Each other pointing out who is the less holy and who is the demon. Just like the dragon gets called evil and therefore the knight needs to go slay the evil dragon even if the dragon did absolutely nothing it still gets destroyed because the knight "thinks" and "views" it to be evil. Is the knight is just in its reasoning because it believes it is right? No in reality the knight is evil from the perspective of the dragon.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
If you would like me to explain more, I will...
Explain away, but I can already tell some of your mindset is rather saddening for me. Demonizing those who think differently is where the bloodshed of history gets it's name and where future crimes are made.
