Satan and good

It looks like we have to decide which Satan we are talking about. As Chai Tea noted, there is the Biblical Satan and the, I'll call it, pop-culture Satan build up in medieval and modern times.

It has been said in this thread that the Biblical Satan does not control or punish anyone. However, in the passage that Questioner quoted (Revelation 20:7), Satan is "loosed" upon the world so as to deceive it and turn it against God. Well, loosed by who and why specifically in 1,000 years? It sounds like it is part of a plan, maybe God's plan? In which case God seems to have decided to use Satan as a test of humankind in the end of days. Was this in God's plan from the outset? I think not as the Angels were also invested with Free Will and it seems that Free Will is always messing with God's plan. So it seems God is using Satan in Revelations 20 as a sort of amendment to how he might have wished things to go (naked people dancing around eating figs and lettuce in Eden). Why would God unleash Satan upon his children? I will argue it is to test Free Will.

Free Will seems to be a black box to God in that He is never quite sure if we really love him or are being faithful to Him in our hearts. By testing us, he is reassured, apparently. God tests many of the prophets to insure their loyalty as it seems he can not know for sure without some outward gesture. When God tests the prophets, or anyone, the Bible does not call God's test Evil. Even asking for the sacrifice of ones child is not seen as Evil (the psychological effects of actually having decided to kill your child is not something I would want to endure). So when God uses Satan, who seems to be firmly in control of the Biblical God, it should not be considered Evil.

Now the question originally was, is Satan himself good? The Biblical Satan seems to be bent of the overthrow of God. I have not seen anything depicting Satan as being against humanity. In fact, it was Satan who gave us the knowledge of Good and Evil and he may have given us everlasting life had not God immediately protected that tree with the fiery sword that swings in all directions. The Bible is pretty clear that it is in fact God who has prepared hell for humanity and Satan and the fallen angels.

So I'm not exactly sure what to think yet about the Biblical Satan and am very interested in what people have been saying and hope that people continue to share their thoughts.

The pop-culture Satan seems a bit more clear cut to me. This Satan is in charge of hell and all the wicked people go to hell. The books are opened in Heaven and the righteous pass into Heaven and the wicked fall to hell. Again, no good people go to hell. So based solely on this, Satan is working for good.

Pop-culture Satan also tempts the living with wealth and fame etc. This is again testing free will. The question is, without these tests would everyone get into Heaven. What is it in a persons heart that causes them to sin? Would they sin without Satan? Would they express the corruption of their Free Will given non Satan inspired opportunities? I will argue yes, based on the tests God found it necessary to inflict on the prophets in the Bible. People will sin and turn from God even without Satans help. It seems that Satan is doing us all a favor be weeding out those whos hearts are not perfectly true in their alignment with God. Satan has no power over the righteous, only those who choose to sin. So as long as he does not harm the righteous, Satan can claim at least a neutral outcome here. I would even say he is working for good, but I won't push it.

Now there is this little nagging bit about Justice. I'm going to use Plato's definition of justice here, in which case Satan is not about Justice. But then God is not about Justice either, as I noted above, eternal punishment can not be Just. So I'll give God +1 Evil and Satan +1 Evil = neutral.

My thoughts so far...

Kind Regards

When I argue that Satan is good I am not arguing belief, I am arguing logic. I am not interested in arguing my belief vs. your belief. I am willing to accept a person's beliefs at face value. What I am interested in doing is understanding what that person's beliefs say about God and the Universe if they are true. If, according to someone, God said A, B and C and did X, Y and Z, what can we learn about the nature of things based on those statements and actions? What sort of world picture logically follows?

I think that the Bible is a better story than a simple dichotomy of Good and Evil (god is all Love, Satan is all Evil). I think Satan is feared more than understood. I think the biblical concept of Free Will is either the lock or the key to something important (I got that idea from this thread). What it all means to me, I don't know, but the bible is of such central importance to the modern world I am very interested in understanding it. I am also, I think obviously by the title of this thread, interested in challenging the dogma and prejudice of people who practice it as faith.

Kind Regards

Gods acts of almost total genocide (see: the flood) somehow do not blemish the concept of him being "pure love" with a deep caring for the wellbeing of humanity.

Even in the flood, an act of almost total genocide, God apparently does not punish the good, he saves the only good people on Earth. So Satan, whatever he does in hell, does not seem to be the thing that makes him evil, as he only does what God has done, which is punish the wicked.

As was pointed out, Satan also tempts the good so that he can torture them later. This does indeed seem like an evil thing. However, as I also noted above, humanity has the choice to actually be tempted or not. If there was no Satan, would we still face that choice, in our own hearts, as beings of free will? Or would Satan's non-existence remove the choice of doing evil from the Universe of possibilities. In which case, how would we know what is good or evil and what would have been the point of eating from the Tree of Knowledge? If the choice to do evil remains without Satan, what would God do to punish the wicked and would it be considered "good" for God to punish the wicked?

Someone said above that Satan must harm the good or else how do bad things happen to good people? People are tormented by wicked people who made wicked choices. Now evil acts of Nature (see: Hurricanes) I'm not sure how to explain but to admit that Satan is responsible for causing them, in God's creation, certainly puts a limit on the extent of God's powers to protect the good.

Terry:

As for Satan lying: For starters, look at the second and third chapters of Genesis. God told Adam and Eve that they would "surely die" if they ate the fruit off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan (in the form of a serpent) told Eve that she would not die. That's a blatant lie.

Even though that is a specific example, I think that the main point (again) is that Satan wants to distort everything that God created - turn it all against Him, if you will. When Satan tempts humans, he is trying to persuade us that our way is better than God's way. IMO, that is the main point when the Bible says that Satan is the father of lies.

God is always just. God is perfect. God is eternal. Man may not believe God is just, but that is (IMO) because man thinks we should not suffer the consequences of our sins. God decides what is sin and what is not sin. Man keeps trying to revise that list.

God though must believe that Satan is necessary, so there is something to tempt man, and man has something to overcome before he can attain heaven.
If God is omnipitant (sp)? he could simply cause Satan to be no longer in existance in an instant. Then, temptation would be gone, sin would be gone, and again, heaven would be a given.

So, again, God must want people to be tempted, I would suppose to prove their faith in God, and so, Satan is necessary to provide the temptation. Satan is a necessary evil.

Personally, I don't know why God wants to tempt Man, since I hear God is supposed to love us unconditionally. Allow Satan to exist to tempt us sounds like a condition to me.

while back I asked in a thread a quesiton about interpretation of the bible. Honestly, I don't want to revisit that, it was much too frustrating that there was no simple straight talk on the subject....However, in brief, my question at the time was basically "Who's interpretation"? I hear many say that the bible is interpreted by particular people through Gods "guidance" if you well, (brain not working, can't think of another word, you know what I mean) Well, I see the problem is that other humans are the ones choosing which persons interpretation of God word is the correct one.

See, there seems to be an awful lot of beliefs as to Satan's role, too much to be based on the little that is directly written of him in the bible. But then again, and not to start another bru-ha-ha, I believe there is a tremendous amount of information that was originally in the bible that has been cut out over the years, in order to make it conform more readily with the actions of who was in charge at the time.
What with kings and princes and politians slowly chipping away at it, I think much of what was originally written and was truly intended to be there is either gone or it's meaning has changed.
Two people may claim devine inspiration, and interpret something in the bible. Half the people will follow one, half the other. Over simplistic I know, but it just seems so obvious to me at least.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God, in Genesis 2, wrote:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That seems pretty clear to me. Adam lived for over 900 years after eating the fruit, so it seems that God lied to him. (Some people use the verse about a thousand years being the same as a day to God as an excuse for God's fib, but he knew that to Adam, a day was the time from sunset to sunset)

If God created everything, then God is responsible for all of the ills. Do you really think that ancient people knew how to create germs and parasites, modify DNA to produce physical ills, change the wiring and biochemistry of their brains to produce mental illness and evil tendencies, and create an unstable foundation and weather patterns in the earth? Or would have, if they knew how?

If God created everything, then God is responsible for all of the ills. Do you really think that ancient people knew how to create germs and parasites, modify DNA to produce physical ills, change the wiring and biochemistry of their brains to produce mental illness and evil tendencies, and create an unstable foundation and weather patterns in the earth? Or would have, if they knew how?

Terry wrote:

God, in Genesis 2, wrote:

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

That seems pretty clear to me. Adam lived for over 900 years after eating the fruit, so it seems that God lied to him. (Some people use the verse about a thousand years being the same as a day to God as an excuse for God's fib, but he knew that to Adam, a day was the time from sunset to sunset)

[snip]

What, exactly, is it that you do not understand? Is it the concept of death? Is it what a day is? Where have you read that the death spoken of here is a physical death. Stop breathing and drop to the ground death. Have you not considered the spiritual death of separation from God?

jstark wrote:

When I argue that Satan is good I am not arguing belief, I am arguing logic. I am not interested in arguing my belief vs. your belief. I am willing to accept a person's beliefs at face value. What I am interested in doing is understanding what that person's beliefs say about God and the Universe if they are true. If, according to someone, God said A, B and C and did X, Y and Z, what can we learn about the nature of things based on those statements and actions? What sort of world picture logically follows?

I think that the Bible is a better story than a simple dichotomy of Good and Evil (god is all Love, Satan is all Evil). I think Satan is feared more than understood. I think the biblical concept of Free Will is either the lock or the key to something important (I got that idea from this thread). What it all means to me, I don't know, but the bible is of such central importance to the modern world I am very interested in understanding it. I am also, I think obviously by the title of this thread, interested in challenging the dogma and prejudice of people who practice it as faith.

Kind Regards

I don't currently practice faith, but allow me, once again, to form a reply to your questions.

A few assumptions:

Assumption 1: The bible is a real-life account of a living god, the information held within is inviolable and truth.

If this is the case, then I believe a fairly strong argument can be made for the popular belief that Satan is evil. 1) Satan tempts man to do wicked. Yes man chooses to be tempted, but why would a being that is argued as "good" wish to tempt an otherwise unerring world just so he may punish them? 2) If the job Satan does is done for the side of "good", why would he then be barred from heaven where all the other "good" beings reside? The unfallen angels have performed some rather unsavory tasks in the past. They are obviously capable of dishing out punishment. Why the need to bar this particular angel from heaven?

Assumption 2: The bible is pure fiction, written by way of collaborative effort between several writers.

If this is the case, then the dichotomy of god vs. satan would necessitate satan being evil. There's simply no other "bad guy" that could be portrayed as the exact opposite of a divine being of good.