Merry Andrew wrote:jstark wrote:Therefore it is the righteous of God who ultimately condemn people to Satans hell. Satan does not make the choice.
Well, you're partly right. It is not Satan who makes the choice. But neither is it God. It is Man himself who chooses whether to follow moral precepts or whether to yield to Satan's alluring temptations. We're always quick to blame someone or something else for our own shortcomings. The choice is clear. But, again, the desire for immediate gratification, no matter how sordid, gets in the way of clear-headedness.
It seems to me that God has a choice as to where to send the wicked. God could set up any sort of remedial system He wanted, he chooses hell. So hell is God's punishment for the wicked. As only the wicked are punished there, it seems like it is Good.
Kind Regards
Good points, flushd. I was going to say that, in the final nalysis, it is Man who 'flips the coin.' But that wouldn't be quite accurate because in making the choice, Man already knows whether it will come up heads or tails. And if he has chosen the wrong the side of the coin, he has also been forewarned of the consequences. The person who gives in to the temptation is putting short-term pleasure ahead of long-term goals, which is, unfortunately, often typical of the choices mankind makes.
flushd wrote:The entire 'system' is mutually dependent. If Satan were 'good' then he wouldn't be Satan as such.
Devils and saints support each other. God and Satan are like two sides of a coin: they can not be seperated and remain 'a coin'.
That would clear it up if I were a dualist :wink:
I can invision a system where everything that God created, including Satan, is good. But humanity is given the opportunity to screw it up and be punished for being wicked, which is a good thing.
Kind Regards
Hey, I didn't say you have to believe it or become a dualist
If you were to hold that worldview, that's my understanding of how it 'works' and why Satan is not good.
I'm not a christian myself; but I find it quite pretty how intricate a system it is. I'm a big fan of the saints
Questioner wrote:God has granted something called Free Will. Yes, it is people's choice as to whether to give in to temptation or not. Yet it is written that all men will sin. Since god is not to be associated with sin, those temptations must come from the other side, ie: satan. satan == tempting man == man turning wicked == man suffering by satan's hand == evil
So it is not Satan's punishment that makes Satan evil, but his tempting of humanity to do evil?
If there was no Satan, and people still had free will, would they do no evil? If they would still do evil, would God still punish them and how would God do this?
If no Satan means no evil and thus people no longer have the choice to do evil (like kill each other) then I guess there would be no need for punishment and no need for a gate around heaven.
Hmm.
Thank you one and all for jumping on this topic and giving me a lot of food for thought!
I need to go pick up my wife from work. I'm new to these forums so it will take me awhile to figure out how they work. I was not expecting so much back and forth so quickly.
Kindest Regards
flushd wrote:Hey, I didn't say you have to believe it or become a dualist
If you were to hold that worldview, that's my understanding of how it 'works' and why Satan is not good.
I'm not a christian myself; but I find it quite pretty how intricate a system it is. I'm a big fan of the saints
Ya, but I'm trying to clear this up once and for all!
(/me dies laughing and goes to hell)
If Satan does not punish the good, who does? Why do terrible things happen to some very good people, while others seem to be immune from adversity throughout their lives?
Why are some people weak enough to be swayed by Satan? Are they born with inferior characters or evil tendencies? If not, why would anyone fail to choose good over evil, especially knowing that they were choosing eternal punishment and giving up eternity in paradise?
Are there any instances in the Bible where Satan lies? Not where he is called a liar or tempter, but actual lies he told?
According to the Bible, God killed millions of people through drowning, plagues, snakes, earthquakes, fire and brimstone, turning them into salt, ordering the slaughter of children, etc. How many people did Satan kill, other than Job's children?
God promises us horrible tribulations and the end of the world. Here is a particularly creative one:
God wrote:Revelation 9
3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.
Are God's minions going to do all of the dirty work, or will he let Satan join in the fun?
Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of does it say that Satan is a 'prison guard' in hell or 'one who punishes' in hell. Can you provide references of any place in the Bible where this is stated?
You've got it all wrong. Satan is actually what is known in English common law as an
agent provocateur (using a French phrase in English common law is quirky but not uncommon). In the US you would know it as "entrapment".
He's not a guard, he's just undercover
Terry wrote:Are God's minions going to do all of the dirty work, or will he let Satan join in the fun?
Gods acts of almost total genocide (see: the flood) somehow do not blemish the concept of him being "pure love" with a deep caring for the wellbeing of humanity.
Even in the flood, an act of almost total genocide, God apparently does not punish the good, he saves the only good people on Earth. So Satan, whatever he does in hell, does not seem to be the thing that makes him evil, as he only does what God has done, which is punish the wicked.
As was pointed out, Satan also tempts the good so that he can torture them later. This does indeed seem like an evil thing. However, as I also noted above, humanity has the choice to actually be tempted or not. If there was no Satan, would we still face that choice, in our own hearts, as beings of free will? Or would Satan's non-existence remove the choice of doing evil from the Universe of possibilities. In which case, how would we know what is good or evil and what would have been the point of eating from the Tree of Knowledge? If the choice to do evil remains without Satan, what would God do to punish the wicked and would it be considered "good" for God to punish the wicked?
Someone said above that Satan must harm the good or else how do bad things happen to good people? People are tormented by wicked people who made wicked choices. Now evil acts of Nature (see: Hurricanes) I'm not sure how to explain but to admit that Satan is responsible for causing them, in God's creation, certainly puts a limit on the extent of God's powers to protect the good.
Kind Regards
real life wrote:Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of does it say that Satan is a 'prison guard' in hell or 'one who punishes' in hell. Can you provide references of any place in the Bible where this is stated?
I was responding to someone elses analogy to Satan as a prison guard who abuses his power to torture people. I do not equate Satan to a prison guard nor is it a part of my argument at all.
As for the Bible talking about hell and the Devil, here is Matthew:
From Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
...
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
But I am not all that concerned with Biblical verse. It is to easy to tear God apart using his own word and it does not lead anywhere useful. My argument is based on what people believe God to be, and what people believe the Devil to be. These concepts seem to have largely been build up in Medieval times and so I am drawing from those sources mostly. Although from the verse above you can see the concepts were not alien to the earliest Christians.
Kind Regards
You cannot tear God apart by using His own word. You can attempt to do it by using one's own interpretation fo God's word.
This all just seems to be another "blame someone or something" but don't blame mankind for what's happening to them.
The world has laws we live by. We know the punishment for breaking those laws. It is OUR decision to break the laws or not knowing the consequences.
It is the same with God. God makes the rules. We know the punishment. WE make the decision whether to follow the rules or not. It is really just this simple and yet, it seems as there are those that want to make it harder.
It reminds me of a friend I had once. He at one time had been a Christian. He became a Buddhist. I aksed him why he changed. He said, "I was looking for answers and the answers Christianity offered were just too simple. I figured there had to be more to it than that."
Too simple? To this day, his statement still boggles my mind.
Actually, Satan punishes no one...
According to the Bible, Satan accuses us for the sin we do. He's not interested in seeing any sort of justice done. He does, however, want to see us suffer and be in hell, apart from God. Satan accuses us before God. God is the ultimate judge, and He delivers justice according to His standard (He is also the ultimate source of mercy, thankfully).
My opinion is that Satan hates humans and wants them to be in hell because he hates God. God created humans to be with Him - to love Him and be in a relationship with Him. Because Satan is opposed to everything God intends, he tries to destroy the relationship between man and God. He wants to compete with God, and we are just pawns to him.
Terry:
As for Satan lying: For starters, look at the second and third chapters of Genesis. God told Adam and Eve that they would "surely die" if they ate the fruit off the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Satan (in the form of a serpent) told Eve that she would not die. That's a blatant lie.
Even though that is a specific example, I think that the main point (again) is that Satan wants to distort everything that God created - turn it all against Him, if you will. When Satan tempts humans, he is trying to persuade us that our way is better than God's way. IMO, that is the main point when the Bible says that Satan is the father of lies.
Satan is the spirit of evil and the chief adversary of God. He tempts mankind to turn away from God. That is the bottom line.
Very interesting topic.
First, I must say welcome to jstark, it is really refreshing to find someone who can pose a question, or put forth a hypothesis while retaining respect for others and not getting into a tiff.
Just a few random ideas, no particular order....
Not to sound trite, but is not Satan a "necessary evil"?
I'm no bible scholar, so forgive me if I don't get the story exactly correct, but....Isn't it that Satan is an angel, and became jealous of man, since God put man above the angels?
True Redeemed, Satan does hate man because he is jealous of man.
But, does Satan hate God, or is he just angry with God for (1) putting God above the angels and (2) casting him into hell as punishment.
I guess, thinking about it, I see Satan as more enraged with God than hateful, because of what he sees as his unjust punishment.
Does Satan see God as good, for doing the right thing and punishing him? Or, does Satan see God has evil for punishing him unjustly, since Satan feels putting man above him as unjust?
I thought man judged himself in the afterlife. The way I heard it is that when man will be able to see his true life when in the presence of God, and will be able to judge himself correctly. So in that case, if man judges himself, he sends himself to hell, where Satan punishes man because he hates man.
Is then the word not tormet, rather than punish?
Satan hates all of man, so would like to torment all men.
He's only given the opportunity to tormet man when man judges himself unworthy to be in the presence of God.
I don't know, maybe it's semantics but I really see man as punishing himself. Man sends himself to hell. I mean, I can't imagine this following scenerio...God says, I'm punishing you by sending you to hell......and man says....well God, I disagree with you, I don't think I was that bad.
I would imagine if God judged you bad enough to go to hell, you'd pretty much agree.
Oh, Terry....I don't think Satan punishes the good during life, like bad things happening to good people.....
That just a product of living in this world, floods and sickness and accidents happen without regard to whether you are good or bad.
The Satan being a necessary evil idea...
The point was made by someone that if Satan had not defied God there would be no temptation, then there would be no hell....hmmmmm, thinking....
If Satan, being jealous of man, fought with God, and won, Satan would no longer have any need to be jealous of man or torment him.
I mean, what reason would he have to hate and torment man if he felt things were put to rights and angels were now in higher esteem than man....?
If that had happened, there would have been no hell to send man to.....and would have left us alone since we weren't coming between God and the angels.
God, on the other hand, would still have no reason to hate man, since we were his creations.
What if God, when Satan came to him and said, I think the angels should still be higher than man, because you made us first and serve you....What if God had said, You're right Satan....I will love you, I will love man, but I will hold you in higher esteem than man. I will however, take care of you all, since I created you all.
In the big picture Satan would have been happy, God would have been happy, and we would have been happy. There would be no hell, and everybody would be fine with their place in the cosmos.
See, this is the stuff that goes on in my head all the time....
Finally, speaking of the bible.....since most other relegions have a concept of heaven, hell, God and Satan, all in different terms, to be fair here I think people who follow others faith come forth and discuss.
Jesus explained how Satan became Satan in John 8:44,45:
Quote:YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. 45 Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me.
He was neither Satan nor the Devil until he chose to be.
Chai Tea,
Actually, the reason Lucifer was tossed out of heaven was not because he thought he was better than man. He thought he was as good as God. He wanted to be God. He torments man because God loves us as much as He does.
Satan will even use God's word to his ends. Of course, he will use them in just the opposite manner.
Chai Tea wrote: I'm no bible scholar, so forgive me if I don't get the story exactly correct, but....Isn't it that Satan is an angel, and became jealous of man, since God put man above the angels?
Where did you get the idea that men were above the angels?
You have a lot of good points and questions in your post, Chai Tea. It was very well thought out.
I'll try to reply to what I know. *Note: quotes are by Chai Tea*
I should admit first that I don't know the details of how Satan came to be (other than by choice, as neologist points out). It seems that a lot of Christian theology regarding the origin of Satan comes from Milton's "Paradise Lost." If anyone has an actual Biblical reference or passage on Satan's specific origin (eg. story of his fall), could you post it?
Quote:I thought man judged himself in the afterlife. The way I heard it is that when man will be able to see his true life when in the presence of God, and will be able to judge himself correctly. So in that case, if man judges himself, he sends himself to hell, where Satan punishes man because he hates man.
In Romans and 2 Corinthians, the Bible says that man will give an account of himself to God. In Revelation, it says that God will judge. After the final judgment, Satan is going to be punished in hell.
Quote:But, does Satan hate God, or is he just angry with God for (1) putting God above the angels and (2) casting him into hell as punishment.
I guess, thinking about it, I see Satan as more enraged with God than hateful, because of what he sees as his unjust punishment.
I think it's both, actually. Unjust or out-of-control anger leads to hate and bitterness. Hate is a desire to do evil or injury to another person, which is what Satan seems to do to God. Good question.
And yeah, I can imagine that Satan is enraged.
Quote:I don't know, maybe it's semantics but I really see man as punishing himself. Man sends himself to hell. I mean, I can't imagine this following scenerio...God says, I'm punishing you by sending you to hell......and man says....well God, I disagree with you, I don't think I was that bad.
The Bible does say that everyone will confess that Christ is Lord at the judgment. So they probably will see and agree. I know that on earth, however, hardly anyone likes the thought of being judged by God, and I can imagine that quite a few people disagree with it at present *smile*.
I think I'm a little confused about your necessary evil idea. Would you explain it again (I'm a little dense...
)?
Perhaps this will help explain about Satan's fall.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-fall.html
