Satan and good

oops sorry, my bad

I looked up a little more after I posted.

For Momma, Intrep, anyone else who may know.......
Do I have this right? Satan was so beautiful, he had everything (except God's power and position) and because of his inflated ego lol he could not be content with his lot? So, he decided he wanted to be God, and eventually, after much mischief on Satan's part, God cast him out of heaven?
Now he is creating mischeif from below?

Jeez, Satan sounds like the brat who had everything and still had to have would he couldn't have!


Okay. So would an atheist be considered to be under Satan's sway? An atheist denies God (which would be a serious act of arrogance if God exists!).

Not trying to derail your thread; just interested.

flushd,

I am going to defer to Intrepid on this, if I may. I am afraid that I would not be able to answer it fully and I myself could learn much from this question.

I think the point is that we are all under Satan's sway. We all succumb to temptation at times. My view is that the opposition and learning to overcome it with God's help, and being forgiven for our slips through the Atonement of Christ is what teaches us. It's like strength training, the resistance is what makes you stronger, unless you give up and stop lifting.

Also, I believe that Satan is out to make us as miserable as he is. Since through his rebellion he denied himself salvation. We still have it available to us, and he is bitter.

My argument to this point
First off, thanks for the welcome Chai Tea



God's punishments can not be just because they are eternal in nature. Satan has no hope of ever being redeemed and so there is no reason for him not to fight God at every opportunity. Plato argued that it was better for the unjust man to be caught and suffer the consequences than for him to not be caught. Platonic justice leads to redemption and the increase of goodness in peoples souls. God's justice leads nowhere.

Kind Regards

Re: My argument to this point

How do you know that?


How do you know that?



Incorrect. God's justice leads to 1 of 2 places.

Yes, sorry about that. I should have bit my tongue as it has nothing to do with my argument.

Kind Regards

Re: My argument to this point


The Bible says so:

Matthew 25:
41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels:"

...mutch hand ringing by the wicked ensues...

46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into everlasting life."



Because the Bible says so. (see above)



Right, and then it leads nowhere.

Kind Regards

jstark,

God is always just. God is perfect. God is eternal. Man may not believe God is just, but that is (IMO) because man thinks we should not suffer the consequences of our sins. God decides what is sin and what is not sin. Man keeps trying to revise that list.

I would not consider what Satan is about as mischief. His purpose is to sway mankind away from God so that their redemption and the spiritual overcoming of death is hindered or blocked.

Was Satan beautiful? I don't know. Did he have an inflated ego? I don't know. Did he want to be God? I don't know. Assumptions could be made based on different materials, but just as we cannot prove that God exists we cannot prove that Satan exists. We either believe it or we don't.

I think that Satan, as portrayed in Paradise Lost, is in part taken from the bible, part from the mind of John Milton and partly from the times in which Milton lived which was the 17th century. It is indeed a fanciful and intriguing tale, but how much is true?

In the bible, Satan is more referenced that being written directly about. That is not to say that he does not appear in the bible.

Satan is referenced in both the old testament and the New Testament. The serpent who tempted Adam and Eve is thought to be Satan. Spiritual death was caused by the sin of Adam and Eve and the serpent (Satan) caused them to sin. Therefore, Satan is the great tempter of mankind and is determined to turn man away from God.

Some say that Satan would be an atheist since he does not serve God. Satan believes in God and is, therefore, not an atheist. Rather, he is an enemy of God. That is one of the reasons that God sent His Son. To bruise the heal of the serpent and to redeem mankind. The prophesies that we can read in the bible will be fulfilled when the time is right. Satan and those who follow him will be no more.

Satan may be compared to a brat who has everything, but he does not. He could be compared to the brat that wants to have what he couldn't have but the fact is, Satan could have that too. The souls of those who God desires. Many already follow Satan and show this in the way that they live their lives. However, there is still hope for all.

You ask if an atheist could be considered to be under Satan's sway. You also say that atheists deny God. If an atheist does not believe in God, why would one suspect that they would believe in Satan? Of course, being under Satan's sway could be the reason for the denial of God. The atheist does not have to believe in either but is still loved by God and desired by Satan.

Re: My argument to this point


Simply because the bible labels it as "everlasting punishment" doesn't mean that it will be punishment for the rest of eternity. Neither does the fact that Satan is condemned now mean that God won't change his mind later on. The god of the NT is a completely different god than that of the OT. A god that changes that much would have little trouble changing his/her mind about eternal anything.

Questioner,

Can you tell me why you would interpret everlasting punishment that way? Why do you think God might change his mind about Satan?

Why would I think he wouldn't? He appears to have changed his mind fairly significantly on other topics.

Also this:

Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison

Ya gotta read what comes AFTER that Questioner (see below, after my post), God doesn't release him to go free and forgive him, See 20:10. about a devil, the beast and the false profit.

It does say forever and ever, but you're right Questioner, it seems God has changed his mind a lot in the old testament.

When Abraham was leading the Israelists in the dessert, there were multiple times when God said he was going to destroy them, but when Abraham would ask God to change his mind, he did.

I guess this is part of what I meant that Satan is a necessary evil, if you are to believe in eternal punishment....

Satan has no incentive to ask God for forgiveness, because even if he did so sincerely, God would still not stop the punishment. So why bother?

Personally, it seems to me God is then making harder to attain heaven than it has to be.....

Okay, if Satan wanted forgiveness, and God did forgive Satan and lift his punishment, Satan would no longer have any reason to tempt man.

Man would no longer have temptation, would no longer sin, and heaven would be a given.
God though must believe that Satan is necessary, so there is something to tempt man, and man has something to overcome before he can attain heaven.
If God is omnipitant (sp)? he could simply cause Satan to be no longer in existance in an instant. Then, temptation would be gone, sin would be gone, and again, heaven would be a given.

So, again, God must want people to be tempted, I would suppose to prove their faith in God, and so, Satan is necessary to provide the temptation. Satan is a necessary evil.

Personally, I don't know why God wants to tempt Man, since I hear God is supposed to love us unconditionally. Allow Satan to exist to tempt us sounds like a condition to me.

The bible says VERY little directly about Satan. When I was looking that up yesterday, I was amazed actually by how little.
And yet, we have all sorts of information about Satan it seems. I didn't realize until yesterday that SO much of our everyday, man on the street ideas about Satan are based on other cultures, myths, and so forth.....

I while back I asked in a thread a quesiton about interpretation of the bible. Honestly, I don't want to revisit that, it was much too frustrating that there was no simple straight talk on the subject....However, in brief, my question at the time was basically "Who's interpretation"? I hear many say that the bible is interpreted by particular people through Gods "guidance" if you well, (brain not working, can't think of another word, you know what I mean) Well, I see the problem is that other humans are the ones choosing which persons interpretation of God word is the correct one.

See, there seems to be an awful lot of beliefs as to Satan's role, too much to be based on the little that is directly written of him in the bible. But then again, and not to start another bru-ha-ha, I believe there is a tremendous amount of information that was originally in the bible that has been cut out over the years, in order to make it conform more readily with the actions of who was in charge at the time.
What with kings and princes and politians slowly chipping away at it, I think much of what was originally written and was truly intended to be there is either gone or it's meaning has changed.
Two people may claim devine inspiration, and interpret something in the bible. Half the people will follow one, half the other. Over simplistic I know, but it just seems so obvious to me at least.

Oh, please, please let's not let this one thing change the course of this thread, it was just a personal thing I wanted to get off my chest.

This thread is far too enjoyable to start the merry-go-round.





20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, if this is so, why does your god (according to you) assign people to such punishment?



Sounds evil to me.

Could be for much the same reason that man assigns punishment for broken laws.

Sure is a vengeful puppy, ain't she?

Momma, how do you account for the fact that many christians believe in a far less vengeful and vindictive god than you do?

dlowan,

And just what makes you think the God I believe in is vengeful and vindictive? You never have and never will hear those words from me. God is all loving.