Satan and good

Well, your particular brand of christian god seems pretty happy to bend, fold, spindle and mutilate folk, and consign them to everlasting punishment and all.


I have gathered you do believe in the fires of hell and all that?


Am I wrong?

Well, I would be happy to answer that if you will tell me what you mean by my...particular brand of Christian god...?

Ok, the fires of hell I get, but what is the 'and all that' that you are referring to?

I didn't know that God came in different brands. Just like breakfast cereal?

It looks like we have to decide which Satan we are talking about. As Chai Tea noted, there is the Biblical Satan and the, I'll call it, pop-culture Satan build up in medieval and modern times.

It has been said in this thread that the Biblical Satan does not control or punish anyone. However, in the passage that Questioner quoted (Revelation 20:7), Satan is "loosed" upon the world so as to deceive it and turn it against God. Well, loosed by who and why specifically in 1,000 years? It sounds like it is part of a plan, maybe God's plan? In which case God seems to have decided to use Satan as a test of humankind in the end of days. Was this in God's plan from the outset? I think not as the Angels were also invested with Free Will and it seems that Free Will is always messing with God's plan. So it seems God is using Satan in Revelations 20 as a sort of amendment to how he might have wished things to go (naked people dancing around eating figs and lettuce in Eden). Why would God unleash Satan upon his children? I will argue it is to test Free Will.

Free Will seems to be a black box to God in that He is never quite sure if we really love him or are being faithful to Him in our hearts. By testing us, he is reassured, apparently. God tests many of the prophets to insure their loyalty as it seems he can not know for sure without some outward gesture. When God tests the prophets, or anyone, the Bible does not call God's test Evil. Even asking for the sacrifice of ones child is not seen as Evil (the psychological effects of actually having decided to kill your child is not something I would want to endure). So when God uses Satan, who seems to be firmly in control of the Biblical God, it should not be considered Evil.

Now the question originally was, is Satan himself good? The Biblical Satan seems to be bent of the overthrow of God. I have not seen anything depicting Satan as being against humanity. In fact, it was Satan who gave us the knowledge of Good and Evil and he may have given us everlasting life had not God immediately protected that tree with the fiery sword that swings in all directions. The Bible is pretty clear that it is in fact God who has prepared hell for humanity and Satan and the fallen angels.

So I'm not exactly sure what to think yet about the Biblical Satan and am very interested in what people have been saying and hope that people continue to share their thoughts.

The pop-culture Satan seems a bit more clear cut to me. This Satan is in charge of hell and all the wicked people go to hell. The books are opened in Heaven and the righteous pass into Heaven and the wicked fall to hell. Again, no good people go to hell. So based solely on this, Satan is working for good.

Pop-culture Satan also tempts the living with wealth and fame etc. This is again testing free will. The question is, without these tests would everyone get into Heaven. What is it in a persons heart that causes them to sin? Would they sin without Satan? Would they express the corruption of their Free Will given non Satan inspired opportunities? I will argue yes, based on the tests God found it necessary to inflict on the prophets in the Bible. People will sin and turn from God even without Satans help. It seems that Satan is doing us all a favor be weeding out those whos hearts are not perfectly true in their alignment with God. Satan has no power over the righteous, only those who choose to sin. So as long as he does not harm the righteous, Satan can claim at least a neutral outcome here. I would even say he is working for good, but I won't push it.

Now there is this little nagging bit about Justice. I'm going to use Plato's definition of justice here, in which case Satan is not about Justice. But then God is not about Justice either, as I noted above, eternal punishment can not be Just. So I'll give God +1 Evil and Satan +1 Evil = neutral.

My thoughts so far...

Kind Regards

Looks that way.

You know, some have a god who forbids divorce and most contraception.

Some have a god who tell them to invade Iraq, some have one who forbids them to kill, and they become Quakers and such.


Some have a god who tells them that homosexuals are vermin to be despised and deprived of civil rights, some have a god who tells them that all their god's creatures are to be loved and treasured.


Some have a god who is physically manifest in the host and wine, some have one who is spiritually manifest only.

Some have a god who tells them to believe everything in the Old Testament, some have one who appears to say that the cricifixion and resurrection mean all old testament bets are off.

Some have a god who tells them feminists and such scum caused Katrina, and we oughta murder the predident of Venezuela....


Some have a god who consigns folk to eternal agony, some believe that is the belief of a mpre primitive generation.

That sort of stuff....

You don't appear to have a very high opinion of God but are certainly willing to give Satan every benefit of the doubt. Is there a reason for that?

All that?

Well, a few examples:

Killing all life on earth, including all the innocent animals, except for Noah and his family and a bunch of critters....


Murdering the innocent first born of Egypt...



That sort of stuff. Read the bible, you'll find heaps.



Like, who needs satan for horror?

Well, I can tell you this. I believe there is one and one only true God. God is not confused about mankind. Mankind is confused about God.

heehee, you've been to the Lash argument school haven't you?

You know, challenge the war etc, and you support murderous terrorists.

It is a totally specious argument, Momma. Challenging your ideas of god does not actually mean that I want to torture and destroy millions, which seems to be the sort of thing satan is (arguably) in to.

Do you really think I am a spawn of satan? Why?


I have no opinion of god, if such a being exists, but I have some very strong opinions about some of the things that some of those who claim to know all about her, and know what she wants, proclaim.


The notion of a merciful god tormenting folk for eternity is one such concern I have, and I often wonder how such good (as far as I can tell) folk as you and Intrepid choose such a god out of those available to christians.

My more major concerns are about the fundamentalist branches of your faith, the born agains etc to whom Bush is so close. I think they do much harm...but it is the logic of your position that I am fascinated by.


(If you do, I haven't heard an answer from you on that one, Momma, and I am intersted in what Intrepid has to say.)


I have an awful lot of respect for the choice of god made by such folk as Quakers, and my dear friend Anne, who is damn near a saint, and a whole lot of other christians I know....like Tutu and suchlike, but when you folk begin to talk about hell and all that I get all puzzled.

So, how did you choose your god from amongst all the confused doctrines of mankind then, Momma?

What were your criteria?

Momma Angel,

Were you replying to me? I don't think I am giving anything the benefit of the doubt. If I appear to be it is probably because everyone immidiatly assumes that Satan is Evil incarnate without ever asking for justification. I think that peoples lack of exploration on the subject leads to a warped sense of justice. It is very near the roots of evil.

Having looked into it I see it is not so clear cut given all of the events in the Bible. In short, I am exercising my Free Will. I hope you can appreciate that my heart and my mind can be in two different places at the same time.

Kind Regards

I think she is replying to me!




On that matter, why would a loving god create satan?

I think Lucifer used his God given Free Will to turn against God and ultimately become Satan. Free Will makes things interesting for God, or else He might as well have just build a watch. Free Will seems to be beyond God's control, and so God is not responsible for Satan, in as much as God seems willing to accept the consequences of allowing Free Will to exist.

Kind Regards

p.s. if you want to argue with Momma Angel about her brand of relgion, could you create a threat for it rather than use this one?

Aah, but she is omnipotent, no?


And, if one believes in satan, it makes life hell for millions. A little more than "interesting", no?

dlowan,

In respect to jstark's request about creating another thread, I would be happy to follow you if you want to do that. Let's not run away with jstark's thread.

Oh yeah, am reading your others posts since I pulled this one up. I will definitely address these questions if you start another thread.

I will tell you this though. God created a beautiful angel of light when he created Lucifer. However, God did not make Satan turn evil. Satan did that all by himself.

Sorry, jstark!

God is the same. The followers are the ones who are different.

You are part of mankind....ergo, You are confused about God perhaps?



ok, ok, low blow, but all due respect....I'm positive everyone hear is aware of your beliefs....

I feel I'm able to discuss the topic without getting my personal beliefs in God involved....Let's take it as a given that some here believe in God, some do not believe in God, and those that do believe in God may not have the same "interpretaion" that others do.....

This discussion of people's personal beliefs is what ususally stops progress of open communication.....

If we feel we have to defend my personal beliefs about God to anyone, we're getting the topic of the thread off track, and the thread just gets plan old irritating and boring.

Yes, a thread should and does have a life of its own, but let's not let it mutate into the creature that makes the same 1/2 dozen declarations over and over.

Intrepid, you too.
Dlowan, and you.

This newbie has some absolutely facinating thoughts, fresh and exciting to me.....something I haven't felt on this forum for a long time.

Chai Tea,

You are so right! If you see me get off track again ~ STOP ME PLEASE!

Okay, so could someone pick up where the convo left off?
I can't tell what happened...but I was genuinely interested in what was being discussed.