Why does the god of the Bible consider handicapped people...

Oh, I would happily let your beliefs alone if there were not a lot of born again loonies around trying to foist them on others.

Why not ask Frank what he means when he says these beliefs are destructive?

And, it is only to peoppe prepared to swallow illogic whole who can possibly see your god as perfect, Momma.

It is circular logic. Of course, She is above logic, I know, sigh.

Just from interest, how do christians explain god changing her mind, seemingly, from old to new testaments?

Or about the flood?

Both sides of the apparent divide perfect, even though seemingly changing?

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Momma Angel wrote:

dlowan,

Again no matter what He does? dlowan, you don't seem to be grasping the concept here. HE is God. We are not. HE made the rules. HE is perfect. He does not commit abominations or crimes. Man does. Not God.

I don't pick and choose. I have answered that twice now. This makes the third time.

And Intrepid, my friend, I am right there with you and I always will be. Attacking someone for their beliefs is the same as attacking someone else for being gay, black, purple, etc. And, it appears that some non-believers are always the first to let anyone know if they are discriminating against the ones I just mentioned. And I do not mean all non-believers. There are some that are the exact opposite.

Momma. Do you read what people post?

I have given you several examples of picking and choosing, not one of which you have dealt with, except to continue to say you do not.

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Selective religion. The whole bible is the "word of god," but we can select only the new testament to believe and follow.

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What ever happened to "free will?"

God strikes a sorcerer with blindness for trying to dissuade a potential convert (Acts 13:6-12).

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Momma Angel wrote:

dlowan,

Again no matter what He does? dlowan, you don't seem to be grasping the concept here. HE is God. We are not. HE made the rules. HE is perfect. He does not commit abominations or crimes. Man does. Not God.

I don't pick and choose. I have answered that twice now. This makes the third time.

And Intrepid, my friend, I am right there with you and I always will be. Attacking someone for their beliefs is the same as attacking someone else for being gay, black, purple, etc. And, it appears that some non-believers are always the first to let anyone know if they are discriminating against the ones I just mentioned. And I do not mean all non-believers. There are some that are the exact opposite.

Momma. Do you read what people post?

I have given you several examples of picking and choosing, not one of which you have dealt with, except to continue to say you do not.

And, generally, you are not attacked: your BELIEFS are.

BELIEFS are attacked all the time here.

That is a big part of what this place is about, robust tussles about beliefs.

Your beliefs will continue to be attacked.

Get used to it.

Personal attack is against the TOS, if you believe you have been personally attacked you may report it.

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dlowan,

I have been reading your posts. I asked you if you would please reword that one paragraph because I didn't understand what you meant.

And if I may ask, why do you call God a she? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. I don't see how you get she from that.

And I know perfectly well Frank's take on things regarding this dlowan.

I would glady answer whatever question I missed if you wouldn't mind asking it again. I do apologize.

C.I.,

No one asked you to just select from the New Testament only. We have tried to get you to understand the meshing of the OT and the NT. You either don't understand or don't want to understand.

dlowan,

I am sorry if I gave you the impression (if I did) that you were attacking me. I did not mean you.

But, this is a bit of a sticky here. Frank took offense because we were calling him a baby killer because he was pro-choice. We have never called Frank that. Frank said just the fact that we think an abortion is killing a baby it is the same thing as saying he is a baby killer.

Now, Frank has called my beliefs idiotic, moronic, etc. I pointed out to him I felt he was personally attacking me. He said he was not attacking me, he was attacking my beliefs.

Now, seems to me that if he thinks I call him a baby killer because I think abortion is killing a baby, I think it is very reasonable for me to feel he is calling me an idiot, a moron, etc.

There is no need for namecalling on either side. No reason whatsoever. I think we are all intelligent enough that we can get our points across without belittling someone else.

C.I.,

Just as you have the free will to not commit a crime such as premeditated murder because of the consequences you have the free will to choose God or not and you have been told the consequences. Same principle.

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Thank you for your polite response, Ma.

I call god she because I find it deeply offensive that a concept of that ilk is given masculine gender, by some religious, reinforcing as it has through the millenia that women are inferior, the gods yours rooted out being usually both male and female. In fact, the awful attitude to women in the three related faiths Judaism, Islam and Christianity (at least as it ended up being interpreted post Paul's noxious influence) being amongst the most powerful arguments for their harmfulness, as interpreted by so many sexist and woman hating clergy, as it still is today. Women clergy being considered by the male hierarchy of many christian churches as being as unnatural in their bigoted eyes as gays.

I am trying to make up for millenia od sexist religious language!

Do you REALLY think your god has gender, MA? If so, how so?

You say you believe in both the old and new testament.

Th eold, I believe, enjoins you to srone adulterers to death (if they are women, anyway, not sure about men?), kill gays, punish severely those eating ham and shellfish.

These are but a few of the out of fashion moral imperatives of the old testament.

You do not, I assume, recommend these actions should be taken?

Yet your holy book tells you to.

On what basis have you chosen not to obey these commandments?

How, rationally, do you distinguish these ignored rules from those which you say are still ok?

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dlowan,

I and others have tried to explain this before. In the Old Testament there was God and man. God had rules. Man broke them, man got punished.

In the New Testament Christ taught us all about the love of God. Christ became our intercessory for our sin. Kind of like a friend taking a bullet for you thing.

So, the sins of the Old Testament are still the same sins. But, we have been given God's grace to save us from the punishment.

Husker's earlier posts explained it much better than I can.

Does God have a gender? I don't know for sure. I guess it doesn't really matter, does it? I understand your reasoning though.

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How does christ become your intercessory for your sins? If god is god the all powerful, can't he just say, your sins will be forgiven? Why does any god need a christ? Sounds like those cultures back in those ancient days when they made sacrifice for everything. We know today that those sacrifices didn't mean deadly except to appease the pulpieer or king.

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C.I.,

I don't understand why you keep saying why can't He or why can't God. Why can't you? Why can't I? It's not God to blame for all the ills of the world. It is man.

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A little about women in the bible

Quote:

The Bible does not say that a woman cannot teach a man about Christ. Priscilla, along with her husband, taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26).
It does not say women cannot exercise spiritual gifts. The four daughters of Phillip had the gift of prophecy (Acts 21:9). 1 Corinthians 14:3 tells us "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." Thus prophesy and other gifts can be used between women and men.
It does not say that women cannot evangelize. Lydia, after being converted, had regular fellowships in her home and evangelized others(Acts 16:14,40

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cicerone imposter wrote:

God smites a whole city with hemorrhoids as punishment for taking the ark. (1 Sam 5:6-9)

No imagination at all. He should have used that one on the Sodomites.

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a little more

Quote:

God's approach for women in the Bible. The first person to see the resurrected Christ was a woman (John 20:15-18). The first European convert was a woman (Acts 16:14). The only followers of Jesus to stand with Him in his crucifixion were women. There were woman in the upper room and anointed with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:14, 2:1-4). Jesus was born to an earthly mother, but not an earthly father(Matt. 1:18,etc.). Only a woman understood Christ's upcoming death (Mark 14:8). These actions show that women played a part as crucial to Christ's ministry as the men. (In fact, if someone was "making up" stories for their new religion, as has been charged to the writers of the New Testament, they certainly wouldn't have the women as the only ones brave enough to stand at Calvary or the first ones at the empty tomb. Remember, a woman's testimony was inadmissible in a court of law, so the incident not only makes the disciples look bad, but actually undermines from their assertion that it happened at all! Luke 24:11 states that even the disciples thought their story was "nonsense, and they would not believe them." This is actually a benefit in proving the validity of the Gospel account.)

Quote:

Now we'll examine what the Bible says about women and their position. In Galatians 3:28 the scriptures explicitly state that women hold a position of equal value and importance to men: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." When the Messiah was born, He was presented to the prophetess Anna as well as Simeon, again showing the equality of importance in women as well as men. This scripture does not mean that we ignore all differences and treat everyone as one homogenized lump, though. Paul, who penned the above lines, also wrote on how slaves should conduct themselves differently from free men (Eph 6:5-6). In Galatians, Paul is showing that the value of each of those categories has been raised, for by believing in Christ that person becomes a child of God, no matter what their condition previously.

So, taking all of the above into account, how do we interpret the passage in 1 Timothy? God created the world and its systems with an order to them. He has divinely given the responsibility of authority for the church as an organized body to the man, just as the ultimate authority of the marriage relationship rests on the man. This does not make the man superior, only placed in a different role than the woman. The best example of this I can think of is the tribes of ancient Israel. The Levites were chosen out of the twelve tribes to be the priests and to run the house of God, but this didn't mean they were superior to any of the other tribes. That is just the position in which God placed them. In the same way, men are to be the authority in the church. Women are allowed to teach other women, and instruct men. Even Timothy, the recipient of this epistle, was tutored by his mother and grandmother (2 Tim 1:5; 3:15).

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Momma Angel wrote:

It's not God to blame for all the ills of the world. It is man.

Ranked high among those ills is humankind's invention of theology. Whether or not there is or even may be a deity, more blood, tears, and mahem rest with "God is on our side" than with any other cause or slogan. Should a deity or deities exist, the atrocities humankind has inflicted upon itself in the name of that deity or deities cannot be a source of general satisfaction to that deistic entity.

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Timber,

I am sure that He is not happy about what man has done. Not happy at all.

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husker wrote:

A little about women in the bible

Quote:
The Bible does not say that a woman cannot teach a man about Christ. Priscilla, along with her husband, taught Apollos the way of God more accurately (Acts 18:26).
It does not say women cannot exercise spiritual gifts. The four daughters of Phillip had the gift of prophecy (Acts 21:9). 1 Corinthians 14:3 tells us "But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation." Thus prophesy and other gifts can be used between women and men.
It does not say that women cannot evangelize. Lydia, after being converted, had regular fellowships in her home and evangelized others(Acts 16:14,40

Yes.

That is my entire point.

The damn thing is a Rorscach.

The bigoted and hateful will always find what they want.

The compassionate and "enlightened" wil find what they seek.

Yet, neither decides, as reason would suggest, that they are finding what the want to find, and attempting to create universality from this limited and human woven cloth.

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mesquite wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
God smites a whole city with hemorrhoids as punishment for taking the ark. (1 Sam 5:6-9)

No imagination at all. He should have used that one on the Sodomites.

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dlowan wrote:

Yet, neither decides, as reason would suggest, that they are finding what the want to find, and attempting to create universality from this limited and human woven cloth.

dunno if I can agree on universality but I think I see what yer saying

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Momma Angel wrote:

Again no matter what He does? dlowan, you don't seem to be grasping the concept here. HE is God. We are not. HE made the rules. HE is perfect. He does not commit abominations or crimes. Man does. Not God.

After hardening Pharaoh's heart so that He will have an excuse to demonstrate His power, God killed all of the first born in Egypt. How is killing innocent Egyptian babies not an abomination?

After losing 4,000 men in a battle with the Philistines, the Israelites went and got the ark to ensure victory but God failed them and the Philistines killed another 30,000 and captured the ark. They kept it for 7 months but decided to give it back because God afflicted them with disease (tumors/hemorrhoids). They put the ark on a cart along with gold models of rats and tumors and sent it to Beth Shemesh. The people there were delighted to get it back and offered sacrifices to God including burnt cows (his favorite) but he killed 50,070 of the good guys anyway because they peeked. C'mon, if a strange cart showed up on your doorstep, wouldn't you look inside it? If God had defeated the Philistines in the first battle the ark never would have been lost and 80,000 lives would have been saved.

God killed David's son and 70,000 men for sins David committed. What kind of God kills innocents and spares the guilty?

God ordered Joshua to slaughter every man, woman and child in a number of cities in Canaan and take their land. How is murder and theft not a crime?

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Yet another indication of the Bible's attitude toward the handicapped:

2 Samuel 5
6And the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land: which spake unto David, saying, Except thou take away the blind and the lame, thou shalt not come in hither: thinking, David cannot come in hither.
7Nevertheless David took the strong hold of Zion: the same is the city of David.
8And David said on that day, Whosoever getteth up to the gutter, and smiteth the Jebusites, and the lame and the blind that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.

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Why does the god of the Bible consider handicapped people...

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