Why does the god of the Bible consider handicapped people...

You just proved my point dlowan, I am beginning to think some of you out there have never even heard of the New Testament.

Husker!

Thank you so much for posting that! How are you? So good to see you here!

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Why go into "omissions" when you all still haven't answered the contradictions and mixed messges? Added to that, how about answering the question posed by Frank and dlowan about "stoning" as instructed by your god?

After you have answered these, we can continue on with "omissions," but not before. It might confuse all of you.

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another of the same type of thought

Quote:

I believe that at the very heart of this question lies a fundamental misunderstanding of what both the Old and New Testament reveal about the nature of God. Another way of expressing this same basic thought is when people say: "The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love." The fact that the Bible is God's progressive revelation of Himself to us through historical events and through His relationship with people throughout history might contribute to people's misconceptions about what God is like in the Old Testament as compared to the New Testament, however when one reads both the Old or the New Testament it quickly becomes evident that God is not different from one Testament to another and that God's wrath and His love are revealed in both Testaments.

For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be "merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth." (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31: Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5: Psalm 86:15: Psalm 108:4: Psalm 145:8: Joel 2:13) and yet in the New Testament God's loving-kindness and mercy is manifested even more fully through the fact that "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16). Throughout the Old Testament we also see God dealing with Israel much the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would chastise them and yet each and every time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. This is much the same way that we see God dealing with Christians in the New Testament as well. For example Hebrews 12:6 tells us that "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

In a similar way throughout the Old Testament we see God's judgment and wrath poured out on unrepentant sinners. And likewise in the New Testament we see that the wrath of God is still "reveled from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." (Romans 1:18). And even with just a quick reading of the New Testament it quickly becomes evident that Jesus talks more about hell than He does heaven. So clearly God is not any different in the Old Testament than He is in the New Testament. God by His very nature is immutable (unchanging) and while we might see one aspect of His nature revealed in certain passages of Scripture more than other aspects, He Himself does not change.

When one really begins to read and study the Bible it becomes clear that God is not any different from the Old Testament to the New Testament. And even though the Bible is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), it remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. In it we see how a loving, merciful and just God deals with sinful men in all kinds of situations. Truly the Bible is God's love letter to mankind. God's love for His creation, especially for mankind, is evident all through Scripture. Throughout the Bible we see God lovingly and merciful calling people into a special relationship with Himself, not because they deserve it but because He is a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth. And yet we also see a holy and righteous God Who is the judge of all those who disobey His word and refuse to worship Him, instead turning to worship gods of their own creation, worshiping idols and other gods instead of worshiping the one and only true God (Romans 1).

Because of God's righteous and holy character, all sin past, present and future must be judged. And yet God in His infinite love has provided a payment for sin and a way of reconciliation so that sinful man can escape His wrath. We see this wonderful truth in verses like 1 John 4:10 "In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." In the Old Testament God provided a sacrificial system whereby atonement could be made for sin, but this sacrificial system was only temporary and merely looked forward to the coming of Jesus Christ who would die on the cross to make a real substitutionary atonement for sin. The Savior that was promised in the Old Testament is more fully revealed in the New Testament and the ultimate expression of God's love, the sending of His son Jesus Christ is revealed in all its glory. Both the Old and the New Testament were given "to make us wise unto salvation (2 Timothy 3:15) and when we study them more closely it really is evident that God is no different in the New Testament than He was in the Old Testament.

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C.I.,

We have answered those questions repeatedly. You just didn't like our answers.

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dlowan wrote:

Actually, CI has given you a number of instances of a murderous and vindictive god.

You did not refute the accuracy of his examples, but fell to (for some reason) demnouncing what you assume to have been his method of gathering them.

I have no idea if there are more, or less, examples of a vindictive and savage god than there are of a loving and merciful god, but, if the bible is, indeed, a divine revelation, how do you account for gods' behaviour in the light of his own commandments?

You seem to want a reply, so I will give you one.
Even though only single lines were posted to make some kind of point and it was never explained what the point was, I will attempt to respond to each line that was written. Interesting that only the Old Testament is ever used as an argument by naysayers. Anyhow.
Cicerone Imposter wrote:

Quote:

My wrath shall become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." (Exodus 22:24)

Again, you cannot expect to use one line to make a valid point. You left out the preamble to this verse which puts into some context.
21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

Quote:

God kills all of Egypt's firstborn, including animals, to punish Pharoah (EX 12:29)

God also told them how they could avoid this.

Quote:

God kills Korah and 250 others, with their families, because they questioned Moses' authority. (Num 16:1-40)

Again, one line is used by the poster. Let us look at what is actually written.
Numbers 16:1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:
5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company;
7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the LORD doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.
8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi:
9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the LORD: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him?

Quote:

God smites a whole city with hemorrhoids as punishment for taking the ark. (1 Sam 5:6-9)

How should have this been handled at the time?

1 Samuel 5:1 And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.
2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
3 And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.
6 But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.
7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.
8 They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither.
9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.
10 Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And it came to pass, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, They have brought about the ark of the God of Israel to us, to slay us and our people.
11 So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.
12 And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven.

Quote:

God kills 50,000 men of Beth-shemesh because they looked into the Ark. (1 Sam 6:19)

Harsh by our terms, but perhaps not to God. The people were worshipping Baalim and Ashtaroth and did not follow what God had commanded.

Quote:

God kills David's child in order to punish David. (2Sam 12:15-18)

David had killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and had taken his wife to be his wife. David was spared, but his son was given up for his sin. A harsh punishment perhaps, but mild compared to some of the laws at the time.

Quote:

God kills 70,000 men because of David's sin of taking a census. (2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chron 21:14)

10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

When you speak of God's own commandments, they are commandments for men... not God.

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Momma Angel wrote:

dlowan,

We have tried and tried to explain you cannot know the full character of God just by reading the OT. Yet, it is ignored. What would you have us do? Force it down your throat? That's not what we are about.

We answer your questions the best we can. What you and others choose to pay attention to is for you to decide.

But, it gets rather monotonous when we tell you the same answer over and over and yet you ask the same questions? The answer is not going to change.

Yep, and it gets damn monotonous when those who happily swallow this nasty, spiteful, vengeful, vicious god who preaches peace and love except when he is killing thousands in painful horrid ways and his book with a million nonsensical and ridiculous things in it, which they take bits and pieces from, and eschew others, with never a hint of rhyme or reason, and who are, often, better than their god, seek to cram this passel of superstition and madness, mixed in with wonderful ethical principles down our throats, in whatever snipped and pruned form (eg even the christian loonies aren't seeking, as far as I know, to reinvoke judicial murder for adultery and breaking food codes, but who knows?) they please, including disgusting prejudice against gays, stopping rational birth control and sex education and bloody creationism, in whatever Rorschachical and often fighting with the other lot who take a different Rorschach, and wish to batter down the walls between church and state which took millenia to build and is one of the greatest artefacts of civilisation, and return us to primitive toimes (I Know, lots of christiansd are fabulous, but not the fundy bastiches we are fighting with today) well, that gets damn monotonous, too.

And when challenged with the madder aspects of it all, most of you retreat to "faith" and ineffableness and mysterious ways.

Yep, we know you are gonna do that, and we think it intellectually dishonest.

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Wee gee, dlowan, don't hold back!

Did you read any of what Husker posted?

I guess I just really do not understand why the non-believers want to stick to just the Old Testament and not get the full character of God. I am at a loss as to why this is.

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Intrepid wrote:

dlowan wrote:
Actually, CI has given you a number of instances of a murderous and vindictive god.

You did not refute the accuracy of his examples, but fell to (for some reason) demnouncing what you assume to have been his method of gathering them.

I have no idea if there are more, or less, examples of a vindictive and savage god than there are of a loving and merciful god, but, if the bible is, indeed, a divine revelation, how do you account for gods' behaviour in the light of his own commandments?

You seem to want a reply, so I will give you one.
Even though only single lines were posted to make some kind of point and it was never explained what the point was, I will attempt to respond to each line that was written. Interesting that only the Old Testament is ever used as an argument by naysayers. Anyhow.
Cicerone Imposter wrote:

Quote:
My wrath shall become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." (Exodus 22:24)

Again, you cannot expect to use one line to make a valid point. You left out the preamble to this verse which puts into some context.
21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;

Quote:
God kills all of Egypt's firstborn, including animals, to punish Pharoah (EX 12:29)

God also told them how they could avoid this.

Quote:
God kills Korah and 250 others, with their families, because they questioned Moses' authority. (Num 16:1-40)

Again, one line is used by the poster. Let us look at what is actually written.
Numbers 16:1 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men:
2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face:
5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him.
6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company;
7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the LORD to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the LORD doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi.
8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi:
9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the LORD, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them?
10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also?
11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the LORD: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him?

Quote:
God smites a whole city with hemorrhoids as punishment for taking the ark. (1 Sam 5:6-9)

How should have this been handled at the time?

1 Samuel 5:1 And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.
2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.
3 And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.
4 And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.
5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.
6 But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.
7 And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.
8 They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither.
9 And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.
10 Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And it came to pass, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, They have brought about the ark of the God of Israel to us, to slay us and our people.
11 So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.
12 And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven.

Quote:
God kills 50,000 men of Beth-shemesh because they looked into the Ark. (1 Sam 6:19)

Harsh by our terms, but perhaps not to God. The people were worshipping Baalim and Ashtaroth and did not follow what God had commanded.

Quote:
God kills David's child in order to punish David. (2Sam 12:15-18)

David had killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and had taken his wife to be his wife. David was spared, but his son was given up for his sin. A harsh punishment perhaps, but mild compared to some of the laws at the time.

Quote:
God kills 70,000 men because of David's sin of taking a census. (2 Sam 24:15, 1 Chron 21:14)

10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying,
12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee.
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.

When you speak of God's own commandments, they are commandments for men... not God.

Harsh to us but not perhaps to god.

The crux of the thing.

It is ok for your god to do things you would eschew with the most intense horror yourself?

And happily prosecute?

Intrepid, I suspect from your writings here that you are a decent and honourable christian (I don't go in many religious threads, but I haven't seen you behave revoltingly when you are in them).

And I think there are wonderful things in Jesus' teaching, but how you can swallow all this stuff is beyond me.

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dlowan,

I am beginning to believe that the concept that "He is God and we are not" escapes many.

He created us. He makes the rules. He is the dad. He is perfect. We are not.

It's just as simple as that.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wee gee, dlowan, don't hold back!

Did you read any of what Husker posted?

I guess I just really do not understand why the non-believers want to stick to just the Old Testament and not get the full character of God. I am at a loss as to why this is.

If you read Frank's answers you would know.

Because your fundamentalist born again wing are attempting to foist a lot of its morality upon us.

(Picking and choosing without rhyme or reason, as ever.)

If christians en masse drop it entirely, and stop using it to justify banning equal rights for gays and so on, I am happy to drop it, too.

We've been waiting two millenia for this to happen.

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It's called prostitution of the intellect. They always seem to excuse their god no matter how heinous the crime against man. What is more troublesome is their inability to see how their god kills and punishes innocent people for the sin of a few - even children. No matter how backward the cultures might have been 4,000 years ago, there is absolutely no excuse to penalize innocent children for the sins/crimes of adults.

They will never "get it."

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another useful passage - a must read link

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Well, some people choose to swallow the politics of their respective country regardless of the outcome and who is affected by it whether it is through unjust wars, bombings of innocent people or some other atrocious act.

Me, I choose to have faith in God and if others find that offensive them I am sorry for them, but not for my convictions. I rarely read the Old Testament since the word Christian comes from Christ. Although the coming of Christ was foretold in the Old Testament, He lives in the New Testament where you do not see God killing people, but Jesus helping, saving and curing them.

I do and and will not attempt to shove my faith down anybody's throat, but I will be damned if I will let others attack me and other Christians just because we are Christians. Especially, by those who have no real idea what we are about.

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C.I.,

I do get it. You are the one (IMO) that does not get it. God is God. We are man. We are imperfect, flawed, sinful, etc. God is perfect, no flaws, no sin.

Your statement:
They always seem to excuse their god no matter how heinous the crime against man."

Literally puts you above God. God does not commit crimes against man. Man commits crimes against God.
"

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Momma Angel wrote:

dlowan,

I am beginning to believe that the concept that "He is God and we are not" escapes many.

He created us. He makes the rules. He is the dad. He is perfect. We are not.

It's just as simple as that.

Perfect no matter what abominations he commits?

Yep, that's simple all right.

Anyhoo, this is, as ever, a useless argument, thouhg I do wish, just once, one of you would engage fully with stuff like how come you pick and choose bits to believe in this holy book?

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I guess the holy books has its flaws.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

I guess the holy books has its flaws.

Don't we all.

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I never claimed to be devine/god! Wink

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dlowan,

Again no matter what He does? dlowan, you don't seem to be grasping the concept here. HE is God. We are not. HE made the rules. HE is perfect. He does not commit abominations or crimes. Man does. Not God.

I don't pick and choose. I have answered that twice now. This makes the third time.

And Intrepid, my friend, I am right there with you and I always will be. Attacking someone for their beliefs is the same as attacking someone else for being gay, black, purple, etc. And, it appears that some non-believers are always the first to let anyone know if they are discriminating against the ones I just mentioned. And I do not mean all non-believers. There are some that are the exact opposite.

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Do as I say and not as I do. Otherwise, you'll spend the rest of your life in prison or in eternal hell. When I commanded you to stone the sinners, why haven't you done so? Do you not follow your god's commands? You will surely suffer in eternal hell for not following my commands. They are not suggestions; they are godlycommands. Go forth and kill!

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Why does the god of the Bible consider handicapped people...

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