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why 3 grand juries

 
 
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 03:18 am
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 4,443 • Replies: 91
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 05:45 am
Not sure of the answer and I'm trying to be objective as possible here and not indulge in partisan politics. I understand that a grand jury has a certain life. It looks like the "second" grand jury was due to complete its sittings on the Friday and I suppose when it rose (do they "rise" like a court?) that was it. But then apparently over the weekend there was new evidence (?) so a new "third" grand jury got to hear the evidence.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 05:58 am
Don't get your panties in a knot, mysteryman. The courts will sort it all out. You know as well as I that panels are made of people with partisan views. The first that refused to indict may have been all fanatical Delay supporters.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 06:27 am
there is an old saying.

A Prosecutor can indict a Ham Sandwich if they try hard enough.

Looks like the DA is trying very very hard.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 06:59 am
Don't forget that this is really the lesser of DeLay's problem; the Jack Abramoff case is by far the more serious one that DeLay is deeply connected with...

Cycloptichorn
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 07:05 am
Gee, what a surprise, Politicians involved in campaign finance fraud.

My position is this. Any politician directly or indirectly involved in any fraudshould be immediately impeached and removed from office.

That includes Delay, Clinton, Kerry...ANY OF THEM!!!

Republicans do not own the "fraud market". Democrats are knee deep also. The only difference is the liberal media reports only republican "mishaps" more aggressively then they report democrats.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 07:06 am
The idea of Ronnie Earl being incompetent is a laugh. Those of us here in Austin/Travis County know better. He's an idealist, not an ideologue. He's prosecuted both Democrats and Republicans.

DeLay and Co. are trying damage control on a national level, but the real fight is going to be in the courtroom.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 07:16 am
DrewDad wrote:
The idea of Ronnie Earl being incompetent is a laugh. Those of us here in Austin/Travis County know better. He's an idealist, not an ideologue. He's prosecuted both Democrats and Republicans.

DeLay and Co. are trying damage control on a national level, but the real fight is going to be in the courtroom.


Sure he is. That's why he asked for a no-bill from one GJ.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 07:22 am
<sigh>

The liberal media is a myth. Check out the other thread on it.

And I agree that all at fault should be indicted. Feel free to write your local prosecuting authority.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 07:29 am
DrewDad wrote:
<sigh>

The liberal media is a myth. Check out the other thread on it.

And I agree that all at fault should be indicted. Feel free to write your local prosecuting authority.


Sure...
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Chrissee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 08:58 am
Wish I had ten dollars everytime the right uses their pathetic "everybody does it defense."
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 09:04 am
DrewDad wrote:
The idea of Ronnie Earl being incompetent is a laugh.


What about the rumor that the law DeLay was charged with in his first indictment -- conspiring to violate campaign finance laws -- was based on a statute that didn't take effect until 2003, a year after DeLay's alleged acts. Can you say ex post facto? I haven't investigated this deeply, but if true, it sounds fairly incompetent to me. You disagree?

-----

So what do we have: Earle's first indictment falls apart, even though he had a very good foreman -- did you see/hear that guy's comments? -- so Earle goes shopping for another grand jury, which refused to indict. Then his third grand jury indicts DeLay before they've had a chance to get a cup of coffee, based on "new evidence."

Plus we've got the comments he made to the Democratic fund raiser about the DeLay case, the deal he worked out with the eight corporations that if they'd donate hundreds of thousands of dollars to a cause of his choosing he'd drop the charges, and the comments he made to the film crew he let follow him around during his crusade against DeLay. Not to mention his lack of pursuit against similar Democratic activities.

I'm not a close follower of Texas politics, but I'd be surprised if this obviously over-zealous prosecutor wasn't himself investigated following this debacle.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 09:26 am
Quote:
What about the rumor that the law DeLay was charged with in his first indictment -- conspiring to violate campaign finance laws -- was based on a statute that didn't take effect until 2003, a year after DeLay's alleged acts. Can you say ex post facto? I haven't investigated this deeply, but if true, it sounds fairly incompetent to me. You disagree?


Shrug. Not incompetence, just a matter of nailing down a crime syndicate. It's tough work; these guys have had plenty of time to cover their tracks and all the connections in the world to throw wrenches into the case.

You should note that the specific allegations that Delay is charged with aren't really being denied; just that DeLay himself did anything wrong.

Once again, remember that this is the lower of DeLay's problems; the Jack Abramoff case is going to be much, much worse.

Cycloptichorn
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Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 09:48 am
The specific allegations that DeLay is charged with ARE being denied, I believe. Regarding the corporate contributions, that's only not permitted in 18 states, and the Democrats in Texas did the same thing, it appears. Some "crime syndicate." Rolling Eyes
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 09:53 am
Keep on rolling your eyes, Tico; the Money Laundering that DeLay and the RNC and TRMPAC engaged in is well-documented with paper trails. The only question is whether or not DeLay himself knew what was going on.

http://www.bopnews.com/archives/005104.html#5104

Quote:
According to a copy of memos now circulating DeLay was involved in day to day decisions about Texans for a Republican Majority, something he has repeatedly denied.

These memos implicate DeLay in coordinating strategy, raising money, taking checks and approving guest lists. They show that he was kept up to date as a high priority - and that steps were taken to screen his involvement through third parties.

The first is from state representative Dianne Delisi to Boon Pickens, and is on TRM letterhead. The first memo was on targetted races for the committee:

"House Majority Whip Tom DeLay agreed to help us and has been an ardent advocate for us by raising money, making phone calls, serving as a special gest at events and providing assistance with leading strategists."

The second, from "federalistgroup" to "goptoday", saying that companies with "big asbestos problems" will line up.

"I finally have the 2 checks from Rellant, Will deliver to TD next week."

The third indicates that lobbying was being done on corporate time, and that:

"DeLay will want to see a list of attendees for this event."

Consideration, communication, coordination.

The prosecutor clearly has a case.


But, yeah, it's all a partisan witchhunt and DeLay is as pure as the driven snow. Noone's buying that, Tico...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 10:02 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
But, yeah, it's all a partisan witchhunt and DeLay is as pure as the driven snow. Noone's buying that, Tico...

Cycloptichorn


Of course it's a partisan witchhunt. Why else is Earle saying the things he's been saying at the Democratic fundraisers? Why does he appear so desperate to indict DeLay, particularly when it appears he hasn't got much of a case against him? Why is he apparently not interested in indicting any Democrats?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 10:17 am
Quote:
Other jury declined to indict DeLay
Texas prosecutor described as angry


By Larry Margasak and Suzanne Gamboa, Associated Press | October 6, 2005

WASHINGTON -- A Texas prosecutor tried to convince a grand jury that Representative Tom DeLay gave tacit approval to a series of laundered campaign contributions, and when jurors declined to indict, he became angry, according to two people directly familiar with the proceeding.

The grand jury was one of three that considered whether there was probable cause to indict DeLay. Two other grand juries did indict the former House majority leader, who had to step aside temporarily under Republican rules.

Both indictments focused on an alleged scheme to provide corporate political donations to Texas legislative candidates in violation of state law.

The two people interviewed, who commented anonymously because of grand jury secrecy, said Travis County prosecutor Ronnie Earle became visibly angry when the grand jurors last week signed a document declining to indict, known as a ''no bill."

One person said the sole evidence Earle presented was a DeLay interview with the prosecutor, in which DeLay said he was generally aware of activities of his associates. He is charged in an alleged money- laundering scheme to funnel corporate donations to Texas legislative candidates in violation of state law.

The person said that Earle tried to convince the jurors that if DeLay ''didn't say 'Stop it,' he gave his tacit approval."

After the grand jurors declined to go forward, the mood ''was unpleasant," the other person said, describing Earle's reaction.

DeLay and political aides Jim Ellis and John Colyandro were indicted last week by another grand jury, accused of criminal conspiracy to violate Texas election laws.

After the second grand jury declined to indict, a third grand jury brought money laundering charges against DeLay on Monday.

Dick DeGuerin, attorney for DeLay, sought to have the original conspiracy charge dismissed Monday by arguing in a court filing that contended the indictment was based on a law that the Legislature changed in 2003. The original indictment alleges that the illegal acts date to 2002.

Earle said late Tuesday that he sought the second indictment of DeLay on Monday because he became aware of additional evidence.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 10:26 am
Quote:
Of course it's a partisan witchhunt. Why else is Earle saying the things he's been saying at the Democratic fundraisers? Why does he appear so desperate to indict DeLay, particularly when it appears he hasn't got much of a case against him? Why is he apparently not interested in indicting any Democrats?


Um, because Earle is a Democrat. That doesn't make it a witch-hunt when he's doing his job.

He's indicted more Democrats than Republicans over his career by a significant margin. Just because it is a Republican this time doesn't make it a 'Witch-hunt.'

You can cry partisanship all day long, Tico, but it will avail neither DeLay nor you...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 10:43 am
Seems to me Ronnie Earle is an opportunist. He found a big fish to fry and he will try his best to get it done. I believe it is more personal, then partisen. Maybe he wants to run for a higher office sometime soon.

Delay, however, does not have clean hands here.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2005 10:46 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Of course it's a partisan witchhunt. Why else is Earle saying the things he's been saying at the Democratic fundraisers? Why does he appear so desperate to indict DeLay, particularly when it appears he hasn't got much of a case against him? Why is he apparently not interested in indicting any Democrats?


Um, because Earle is a Democrat. That doesn't make it a witch-hunt when he's doing his job.

He's indicted more Democrats than Republicans over his career by a significant margin. Just because it is a Republican this time doesn't make it a 'Witch-hunt.'

You can cry partisanship all day long, Tico, but it will avail neither DeLay nor you...

Cycloptichorn


How might it have appeared if Ken Starr had appeared at a Republican fundraiser during his investigation of Clinton, and called Clinton a "bully"? Might that give one pause to suspect partisanship?

Why did Earle write the op/ed piece replicated below for the New York Times? Did that forward his investigation of DeLay, or did it push his political agenda?

Quote:
A Moral IndictmentRonnie Earle is the district attorney for Travis County, Tex.


Earle's pursuit of DeLay may or may not be purely partisan ... but it sure smells it.
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