1
   

62% of republicans thinks sadam was involved in 9/11

 
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 08:16 am
So, it was right to use Ronnie's to kill the poor Kurds and Iranuians, but it would be wrong to use them to kill anyone else...right....


So, it is fine to kill people who aren't important to the USA, or whom the USA positively dislikes, but it is wrong to not have the weapons to not be able to kill Americans, whom you weren't trying to kill anyway. In fact, you were at the peak of your slaughterous tendencies when Ronnie gave you the weapons.

I get it.

What suits the current US administration US is right, and traitorous not to agree with , and what doesn't is wrong, and gets dressed up as holy missions and such, and WMD get made up despite what the inspectors say and someone who didn't attack you is invaded for having WMDs he doesn't have and being horrid to his own people who he was horrieder to when you supported him and gave him weeapons to be horrider with.


I get it ok.

It is, I suspect a different "it" from the one you want me to get.

It is a really old it.

What makes it even more disgusting is that it is dressed up not only with the usual hypocritical rhetoric, but with god stuff for Bush.

The world gets it, actually.

Except my government, and Blair.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 08:44 am
Iraq posed no threat whatsoever to the United States or the UK. We supported Saddam against Iran, then tricked him into invading Kuwait. This was supposed to lead to regime change 15 years ago. But sanctions only starved Iraqi children and Saddam hung on. Until 2003. But now its going on 2006 and Iran is back in the sights. Why? Because we are moving into an era of global peak oil. The US is consolidating its grip on existing Gulf oil and opening up new oil resources from around the Caspian.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 09:12 am
dlowan wrote:
So, it was right to use Ronnie's to kill the poor Kurds and Iranuians, but it would be wrong to use them to kill anyone else...right....


Context. It was right to give Saddam the ability to defend his country against Iranian aggression and the spread of communism then. I believe chemical and biological weapons have no place on any battleground. We were wrong to supply anyone, at any time with those weapons.

Quote:
So, it is fine to kill people who aren't important to the USA, or whom the USA positively dislikes, but it is wrong to not have the weapons to not be able to kill Americans, whom you weren't trying to kill anyway. In fact, you were at the peak of your slaughterous tendencies when Ronnie gave you the weapons.

I get it.


Are you sure? America, like any country must look after its own interests. How we do that is up to us. Sometimes its unfavorable negotiations, sometimes its a kick in the ass. It's not "fine" to kill anyone. Sometimes it's neccessary though.

Quote:
What suits the current US administration US is right, and traitorous not to agree with , and what doesn't is wrong, and gets dressed up as holy missions and such, and WMD get made up despite what the inspectors say and someone who didn't attack you is invaded for having WMDs he doesn't have and being horrid to his own people who he was horrieder to when you supported him and gave him weeapons to be horrider with.


I get it ok.


I still don't think you do. You criticize the government, that's fine. I criticize you for doing so, and that's not ok? 1 month of inspections, unfettered or not, does not make up for 12 years of negligence. We are still finding things in Iraq no one knew about. We will continue finding stuff in Iraq for the next decade.

Quote:
It is, I suspect a different "it" from the one you want me to get.

It is a really old it.

What makes it even more disgusting is that it is dressed up not only with the usual hypocritical rhetoric, but with god stuff for Bush.

The world gets it, actually.

Except my government, and Blair.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 03:29 pm
Huh? I didn't criticse you for criticising me, I criticised you for a nonsensical arument.

Where do you get this stuff from?


And COMMUNISM????



Ronnie gave Hussein weapons because of COMMUNISM????
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 03:33 pm
Yeah scratch any militant islamist and you find a communist underneath, didnt you know that floppy ears?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 08:20 pm
Check the dates. Why the denial?
____________________________

Lash wrote:
March 15 2003 report: Iraqi non-compliance with UNSCR
This is a copy of the report released by the foreign secretary, Jack Straw
(reproduced in the Butler report)
Thursday April 28, 2005

IRAQI NON-COMPLIANCE WITH UNSCR 1441
15 March 2003

Iraq has failed to comply fully with 14 previous UN resolutions related to WMD.

UNSCR 1441 is unambiguous: "Recognising the threat Iraq's non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security" (PP3)

"Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions" (OP1).

"Decides... to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council" (OP2).

"Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq... and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and co-operate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations" (OP4)

The attached material assesses Iraqi progress in complying with relevant provisions of UNSCR 1441 with illustrative examples.


The Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems...as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material" (OP3)
Code:Not met.
Although a 12,000-page document was submitted on 7 December,
Code: it did not contain new information to answer any of the outstanding questions relating to Iraqi disarmament. None of the issues identified in the UN's Butler or Amorim reports (1999) have been resolved.

Dr Blix, 27 January "Regrettably, the 12,000 page declaration, most of which is a reprint of earlier documents, does not seem to contain any new evidence that would eliminate the questions or reduce their number".
Dr Blix, 14 February
Code:"The declaration submitted by Iraq on 7 December, despite its large volume, missed the opportunity to provide the fresh material and evidence needed to respond to the open questions
"
IAEA written report, 27 January "The Declaration contains numerous clarifications. It does not include, however, additional information related to the questions and concerns", outstanding since 1998.

Outstanding issues that
Code: were not resolved
in Iraq's 7-8 December Declaration include:

Code:Failure to account adequately for SCUD-type missiles and components "suggests that these items may have been retained for a prohibited missile force" (UNMOVIC document, Unresolved Disarmament Issues, [color=red]6 March[/color])

Code:Failure to explain why Iraq has built a missile test stand at Al Rafah that can accommodate missiles with over 4 times the thrust of the (prohibited) Al-Samoud 2 missile
.

Amount of mustard gas unaccounted for is at least 80 tonnes (in 550 shells and 450 aerial bombs) - but "based on a document recently received from Iraq, this quantity could be substantially higher" (Unresolved Disarmament issues, 6 March)

"Given Iraq's history of concealment with respect to its VX programme, it cannot be excluded that it has retained some capability with regard to VX" that could still be viable today.
Code:There are significant discrepancies in accounting for all key VX precursors
.
Code:Iraq said it never weaponised VX - but UNSCOM found evidence to contradict this
. (Unresolved Disarmament Issues, 6 March) It was not until 15 March - over three months after the specified date for the Declaration - that Iraq provided a further document which it claimed contained additional information (although this remains unconfirmed).


"It seems highly probable that
Code:destruction
of bulk agent, including anthrax, stated by Iraq to be at AI Hakam in July/August 1991,
Code:did not occur
.
Code: Based on all the available evidence, the strong presumption is that about 10,000 litres of anthrax was not destroyed and may still exist".
(Unresolved Disarmament Issues, 6 March) Failure to account for all of the aircraft associated with the L-29/Al-Bai'aa remotely piloted vehicle (RPV) programme. Furthermore, there is no explanation of 27 June 2002 RPV flight of 500kms ( the proscribed limit is 150kms).

Failure to account for material unaccounted for when UNSCOM were forced to withdraw from Iraq in 1998: for example, what happened to up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals, including 300 tonnes unique (in the Iraqi programme) to the production of VX nerve agent? UNSCOM estimated that quantities of undeclared growth media could have produced: 3-11,000 litres of botulinum toxin; 6-16,000 litres of anthrax, and 5,600 litres of clostridium perfringens. (Amorim and Butler reports, 1999)

According to Dr El-Baradei (IAEA written report, 27 January) the Declaration "does not include, however, additional information related to the questions and concerns" outstanding since 1998.
Code:These were: the uncertainty about the progress made in weapons design and centrifuge development due to the lack of relevant documentation the extent of external assistance from which Iraq benefited the lack of evidence that Iraq had abandoned definitively its nuclear programme. [I]Apart from failing to answer unresolved questions, the Declaration also contained some significant falsehoods[/I]:

Dr Blix, 27 January. "Iraq did not declare a significant quantity, some 650 kg, of bacterial growth media, which was acknowledged as imported in Iraq's submission to the Amorim panel in February 1999. As part of its 7 December 2002 Declaration, Iraq resubmitted the Amorim panel document, but the table showing this particular import of media was not included. The absence of this table would appear to be deliberate as the pages of the resubmitted document were renumbered."

The 7 December Declaration maintains that the Al-Samoud 2 missile has a maximum range of 150kms. UNMOVIC and a panel of international experts have established that the Al-Samoud 2 is a prohibited system, designed to have a range beyond the 150 kms limit imposed by the UN in 1991 - one variant having a range (based on separate Iraqi data) of just under 200kms.
Code:[color=red]In addition, Iraq declared that the missile was still under development - however, as of February 2003 63 missiles had already been deployed with the Iraqi armed forces[/color].


Code:The Declaration admits that 131 Volga missile engines had been imported, in contravention of sanctions. However, according to UNMOVIC Iraq actually imported at least 380 engines.


The Declaration claims that its UAVs and cruise missiles adhere to UN restrictions. However, recent inspections have revealed a type of unmanned drone that was not referred to in the Declaration, and its range easily exceeds the UN proscribed limit of 150kms.
Code:There has never been full Iraqi disclosure on any of its UAVs.

The Declaration also fails to account property for work on aircraft fuel drop tanks that were converted to deliver CBW agent. The UN found modified aircraft fuel tanks at the Khan Bani Sa'ad Airfield in December 2002. These tanks were stated to have been part of an indigenously manufactured agricultural spray system that was said to have been produced by the Iraqi Air Force (Unresolved Disarmament Issues, 6 March) According to an Iraqi document that UNMOVIC obtained separately from the Declaration, "13,000 chemical bombs were dropped by the Iraqi Air Force between 1983 and 1988, while Iraq has declared that 19,500 bombs were consumed during this period. Thus, there is a discrepancy of 6,500 bombs. The amount of chemical agent in these bombs would be in the order of about 1,000 tonnes. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we must assume that these quantities are now unaccounted for." (Dr Blix, 27 January)

Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA "immediate, unimpeded. unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates" (OP5)

Code:Not met.
At first, none of the Iraqi personnel requested for interview by UNMOVIC agreed to be interviewed in private. At a meeting in Baghdad on 19-20 January, the Iraqi side committed itself to "encourage" private interviews. However, it was not until 6-7 February (i.e. just before Dr Blix and Dr El-Baradei's last visit to Baghdad) that three people agreed to be interviewed in private. But these interviews were with personnel volunteered by the Iraqi authorities,
Code:not with Scientists requested by UNMOVIC.

On 28 February, a further two scientists were interviewed in private. As of 14 March, UNMOVIC had asked 41 people to be interviewed, but only 12 had agreed to
Code: UNMOVIC's terms. The remainder of the interviews could not be carried out because of unacceptable restrictions (e.g. insistence on the presence of official Iraqi minders, or that the interviews be tape-recorded).

It was not until 26 February that the IAEA carried out its first private interview; as of 14 March, IAEA had only been able to carry out 3 private interviews.

Code:[I][color=red]We have reason to believe that the Iraqi authorities have intimidated interviewees; that rooms have been bugged; and that some potential interviewees have been kept away from the inspectors by the Iraqi authorities[/color][/I].


Code:UNMOVIC written report, 28 February.. "the reality is that, so far, no persons not nominated by the Iraqi side have been willing to be interviewed without a tape recorder running or an Iraqi witness present"

Dr El-Baradei, 7 March: "When we first began to request private, unescorted interviews, the Iraqi interviewees insisted on taping the interviews and keeping the recorded tapes"

"UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi Government" (OP5)
Code:Not met.
No interviews have taken placed outside Iraq.

Quote:
Get off Saddam's side. You know damn well what he was doing.


Code:[color=red]There is evidence that Iraqi scientists have been intimidated into refusing interviews outside Iraq. They - and their families - have been threatened with execution if they deviate from the official line[/color].

"UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq's chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programmes and the associated research, development, and production facilities" (OP7)

Code:Not met
. Dr Blix, 27 January. "Some 400 names for all biological and chemical weapons programmes as well as their missile programmes were provided by the Iraqi side. This can be compared to over 3,500 names of people associated with those past weapons programmes that UNSCOM either interviewed in the 1990s or knew from documents and other sources".

During February, Iraq supplied some additional names. However, the information provided is still inadequate. For example, according to UNMOVIC's document on Unresolved Disarmament Issues, 6 March, Iraq provided a list of people who worked in the entire chemical weapons programme - but Iraq's 132 names contrast with UNMOVIC's records, which show that "over 325 people were involved in chemical weapons research" at one establishment alone.

Quote:
EXPLAIN THAT
.

"UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles" (OP7)

Code:Partially met - belatedly, and under pressure. [U]Iraq initially hindered UNMOVIC helicopter flights.[/U]
Dr Blix, 27 January: "Iraq had insisted on sending helicopters of their own to accompany ours. This would have raised a safety problem." The matter was resolved when UNMOVIC agreed to take Iraqi escorts in UNMOVIC's own helicopters. Iraq also obstructed U2 reconnaissance flights over Iraq, placing unacceptable pre-conditions on the flights. Almost three months after inspections began, just before Dr Blix presented a report on Iraqi co-operation to the Security Council, Iraq finally relented. The first U2 flight took place on 17 February.

"UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove. destroy. or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof" (OP7)

Code:Not yet met
. UNMOVIC has determined that the Al-Samoud 2 missile programme, as well as rocket motor casting chambers at Al-Mamoun, are prohibited under SCR687. This assessment has been confirmed by a panel of independent experts, who concluded that the (light) Al-Samoud 2 was designed to fly just under 200kms. In the case of the casting chambers, this equipment was previously destroyed by UNSCOM as being partof a prohibited weapons programme - but was subsequently rebuilt by Iraq. UNMOVIC gave Iraq a deadline of 1 March to begin the destruction of these prohibited systems (missiles plus associated components/infrastructure, and casting chamber). At first, Iraq said that the Iraqi authorities intended "to study" the demand. Then the Iraqi authorities said that they agreed "in principle" to the destruction of the missiles, "despite our belief that the decision to destroy was unjust... and the timing of this request seems to us to be one with political aims" (letter to Dr Blix from Dr Al- Saadi, 27 January).

Destruction began on 1 March, but Iraq has threatened that it may stop the destruction process at any time. As of 14 March, Iraq had destroyed:

- 65 missiles (Iraq has declared production of 76 missiles, but UNMOVIC estimate there are around 120 missiles)

- 42 warheads (out of 118)

- 5 engines (out of an estimated 380)

- 2 missile launchers (out of 9)

"Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations" (OP8)

Partially met. Inspections have largely been incident-free. However, UNMOVIC has noted some "friction" during inspections, and occasional harassment. On several occasions inspectors have been met with demonstrations. Dr Blix, 27 January. "Demonstrations and outbursts of this kind are unlikely to occur in Iraq without initiative or encouragement from the authorities."
On several occasions Iraqi authorities have claimed that inspectors were spying.

"Demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately. unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA" (OP9).
Code:[color=red]Not met[/color]
. The questions outstanding since UNSCOM was forced to withdraw in 1998 have still not been answered. Nor have those issues raised by the Amorim panel, a group of international experts convened under UN auspices to identify outstanding Iraqi disarmament issues. Although Iraq has provided some documents, it is not answering any substantive questions.

On 6 March, UNMOVIC released a paper on Unresolved Disarmament Issues - Iraq's Proscribed Weapons Programmes. The paper is a 173 page-long catalogue of Iraqi intransigence since 1991, detailing

- Some 29 occasions when Iraq failed, despite repeated requests, to provide credible evidence to substantiate claims
-
Code:[color=red]Some 17 separate instances when UNSCOM/UNMOVIC uncovered information that directly contradicted the official Iraqi account [/color]


- 128 actions Iraq should now take to help resolve the outstanding issues

Dr Blix, 14 January. "Although I can understand that it may not be easy for Iraq in all cases to provide the evidence needed, it is not the task of the inspectors to find it. Iraq itself must squarely tackle this task and avoid belittling the questions."
Dr Blix 27 January "It is not enough to open doors. Inspection is not a game of 'catch as catch can'"
UNMOVIC written report, 28 February. "During the period of time covered by the present report, Iraq could have made greater efforts to find any remaining proscribed items or provide credible evidence showing the absence of such items. The results in terms of disarmament have been very limited so far"

Dr Blix, 7 March. "With such detailed information regarding those who took part in the unilateral destruction, surely there must also remain records regarding the quantities and other data concerning the various items destroyed"

Dr El-Baradei, 27 January. "Iraq's co-operation with the IAEA should be full and active, as required by the relevant Security Council resolutions."

There are a number of examples of Iraqi gestures which have been a pretence of co-operation.

Of papers handed over by the Iraqis in early February:

Dr Blix: "No new evidence was provided in the papers and no open issues were closed"

Dr EI-Baradei: "Iraq has provided documents on the concerns outstanding since 1998, but no new information was contained"

Of legislation on Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

UNSCOM - and now UNMOVIC - requested that the Government of Iraq pass legislation prohibiting the manufacturing or importing of WMD and associated material. Draft legislation was provided. On 14 February - the day of Dr Blix's last update to the Security Council - Iraq announced that it had passed a Presidential Decree to this effect In fact, the decree is totally inadequate: its scope is very limited, and it does not even suggest any penalties for offenders.

UNMOVIC written report 28 February. "The presidential decree, which was issued on 14 February and which prohibits private Iraqi citizens and mixed companies from engaging in work relating to weapons of mass destruction, standing alone, is not adequate to meet the United Nations requirements. UNMOVIC has enquired whether a comprehensive regulation is being prepared in line with several years of discussions between Iraq and UNSCOM/UNMOVIC"

Of Iraqi excavation of some R-400 bombs and bomb fragments In February, Iraq notified UNMOVIC that it had uncovered some R-400 bombs (indigenously produced, filled with chemical or biological agent). However, Iraq's declarations on R-400 bombs have been inconsistent and contradictory, leaving UNMOVIC with little confidence in the numbers produced or types of agents filled".

Photographic evidence contradicts Iraqi claims that all R-400A bombs (marked as filled with botulinum toxin and anthrax) were destroyed in July or August 2001. It is unlikely that the results of the ongoing Iraqi excavation will resolve this issue.


"UNMOVIC cannot discount the possibility that some CW and BW filled R-400 bombs remain in Iraq" (Unresolved Disarmament Issues, 6 March)
____________________

I'm sure now OE and Steve and keltic will humbly admit their errors on all points.

Only a Saddam cheerleader would try to brush this under the rug.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 08:29 pm
Who didn't get their mits in the Iran/Iraq war?

Arming the combatants
Iraq's army was primarily armed with weaponry it had purchased from the Soviet Union and its satellites in the preceding decade. During the war, it purchased billions of dollars worth of advanced equipment from the Soviets and the French [2], as well as from the People's Republic of China, Egypt, Germany, and other sources (including European facilities for making and/or enhancing chemical weapons). Germany [3] along with other Western countries (among them United Kingdom, France, Spain (Explosivos Alaveses), Italy and the United States) provided Iraq with biological and chemical weapons technology and the precursors to nuclear capabilities. Much of Iraq's financial backing came from other Arab states, notably oil-rich Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

Iran's foreign supporters included Syria and Libya, through which it obtained Scuds. It purchased weaponry from North Korea and the People's Republic of China, notably the Silkworm antiship missile. Iran acquired weapons and parts for its Shah-era US systems through covert arms transactions from officials in the Reagan Administration, first indirectly (possibly through Israel) and then directly. It was hoped Iran would, in exchange, persuade several radical groups to release Western hostages, though this did not result; proceeds from the sale were diverted to the Nicaraguan Contras in what became known as the Iran-Contra Affair.

--wiki
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2005 05:41 am
I fail to understand the point you are trying to make Lash.

Unless you've been asleep for the last 20 years, everyone is aware that Saddam purchased all sorts of military and military-related kit from all over the place. But after 12 years of sanctions Iraq's military capability was seriously compromised. It was because Bush and Blair knew there was no serious risk from wmd, that we attacked the country. In other words we attacked because we knew Saddam had no nuclear biological or serious chemical weapons, the very opposite of the reasons the public were given.

[So much so that Hans Blix was prevented from giving a final and definitive statement to the UN so keen were Bush and Blair to preserve the myth of Iraqi wmd. On this point I'm reminded of a slip of the tongue Blair made whilst addressing British troops in Iraq, shown once on the BBC and never repeated...Blair actually refered to Weapons of Mass Distraction, then tried to laugh it off by saying they were of destruction and distraction].

It must be obvious to anyone who has followed these events with any interest, that the invasion of Iraq was for much more profound and underlying reasons than whether or not Saddam had any chemical weapons stocks left from the stuff we sold him in the 1980s.

Nor was it undertaken to liberate the Iraqi people from the tyrant Saddam. After all we helped put him in power, and supported him against Iran. [Remember early CIA reports blaming the gassing of Halubja on Iran?]

The fundamental reason for the invasion and occupation of Iraq was to take control of Iraq's oil, and to project American influence in the region. As conventional oil begins to peak around the world, the remaining resources, especially resources that have been under exploited as in Iraq, become ever more desirable. Furthermore, not far away are the new oil and gas fields of central asia and the Caspian, where Russia dominated until recently. This whole enterprise is driven by America's need to take control of a region of the world which supplies 70% of world oil and gas. And its not over yet.

[I will however concede one point. We invaded iraq not for the weapons Iraq had, but because of Saddam's determination to make Iraq into a regional superpower. i.e it was about the wmd Saddam might acquire in the future which prompted the military action against him. But as this pre-emption argument has no more legal bais than taking control of another country's mineral resources, this reason regarding wmd was never used].
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2005 09:48 am
Steve,

I do appreciate your concession; we now agree on the overarching reason for the invasion.

Oil and a benign Saddam wouldn't have had the same result. We had oil and a malignant Saddam. I really think the oil wasn't a contributing factor--but an enhanced opportunity after the fact.

I also understand some believing your last paragraph and still opting against pre-emption. I just wish your ilksters could give mine the benefit of the doubt on our different conclusion.

My point re the wiki excerpt is that several countries have had their mits in the Iran/Iraq/ME cauldron. We are not the only suspect player in the region, and shouldn't be considered as such.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2005 10:53 am
Lash wrote:
Steve,

I do appreciate your concession; we now agree on the overarching reason for the invasion.



the over reaching reason for the invasion was American and western dependency on depleting oil. If you agree with that fine.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Oct, 2005 06:06 pm
Steve--

I shall pull a Bobby Kennedy on you and agree with this statement of yours:
___________________________

We invaded iraq not for the weapons Iraq had, but because of Saddam's determination to make Iraq into a regional superpower.
___________________________
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 03:49 am
There is no inconsistancy whatsoever in the following statements

There were no wmd in Iraq when we invaded Iraq.

We invaded Iraq because Saddam wanted to make that country a regional superpower.

The overiding concern prompting the overthrow of Saddam was oil, both to gain control of the oil resources within Iraq itself, and to prevent a hostile regime in Iraq from developing the military capability to threaten western oil assets in the region.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 07:16 am
The WMD programs, however, were alive and well. (The actual WMD is in Syria LOL)

Steve - please expand on your theory that we went into Iraq to gain control of the oil. I've seen you mention it over and over in this forum, but you haven't told us exactly how this will work. Are we, for instance, going to keep all of Iraq's oil for ourselves or will we auction it to the highest bidder?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 08:18 am
dlowan wrote:
Huh? I didn't criticse you for criticising me, I criticised you for a nonsensical arument.

Where do you get this stuff from?


And COMMUNISM????



Ronnie gave Hussein weapons because of COMMUNISM????


Did I say you criticised me?

Do you actually read before answering? Or is that something you have issues with?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 08:47 am
JustWonders wrote:
The WMD programs, however, were alive and well. (The actual WMD is in Syria LOL)

So you agree there were no wmd found in Iraq? And that the legal basis for the invasion was therefore utterly flawed?

Steve - please expand on your theory that we went into Iraq to gain control of the oil. I've seen you mention it over and over in this forum, but you haven't told us exactly how this will work. Are we, for instance, going to keep all of Iraq's oil for ourselves or will we auction it to the highest bidder?

I'm not sure why you ask. 5 minutes research into the operations of the international oil market should suffice to answer your question. Western oil companies will exploit Iraqi crude oil much like they exploit other reserves around the world. But they cant exploit it until they have access to it. And they haven't yet got proper access to it because there is no security in Iraq. And there's no security in Iraq because the invasion was bungled from the outset imo.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 09:01 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4359386.stm


US planning invasion, says Chavez

Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, says he is in possession of intelligence showing that the United States plans to invade his country. In a BBC interview, Mr Chavez said the US was after his nation's oil, much as it had been after Iraq's.


..................................

Notice Mr Chavez said oil, not rice.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 02:50 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4359386.stm


US planning invasion, says Chavez

Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, says he is in possession of intelligence showing that the United States plans to invade his country. In a BBC interview, Mr Chavez said the US was after his nation's oil, much as it had been after Iraq's.


..................................

Notice Mr Chavez said oil, not rice.


The English educations system ladies and gentlemen, let's hear it for them!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 03:00 pm
Quote:
"We are sure that it will be very difficult for the United States to attack Venezuela," Chavez said. He said his country has eight refineries and 14,000 gasoline stations in the United States.

"If the United States tried to attack Venezuela by a direct invasion, forget the oil," he said in a two-hour news conference beamed live to Venezuela. "Everyday, we send 1.5 million barrels to the United States."

The barrel price of crude oil could hit US$150 following a U.S. attack, Chavez said. Currently New York light sweet crude oil trades around $60 a barrel.
source: Associated Press

No rice but oil, you were correct, Steve.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 03:01 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4359386.stm


US planning invasion, says Chavez

Venezuela's President, Hugo Chavez, says he is in possession of intelligence showing that the United States plans to invade his country. In a BBC interview, Mr Chavez said the US was after his nation's oil, much as it had been after Iraq's.


..................................

Notice Mr Chavez said oil, not rice.


The English educations system ladies and gentlemen, let's hear it for them!



sometimes McG I have to spell it out.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 05:38 pm
Before the fall of the USSR, the Cold War issues did indeed have a role in most if not all international relationships.

The USSR did have their hand in Iran/Iraq--and since WWII, where their hand is, so is ours.

The Communism comment had merit.
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