Give Bush This He's Nervy

sozobe wrote:

Except that what was alleged was his cronyism...

But the sentence in which it was used suggested that Bush lacked the moral standing to criticize corruption at the UN. This seems to me a way of accusing him of corruption.

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Suggest, perhaps, but Bear went ahead to clarify that's not what he meant and it is in fact not what he said -- so the putting words in other people's mouths accusation is a tad disingenuous, no?

Or -- we agree that Bush has practiced cronyism, yes?

Or again -- do you think that the fact that Bush has practiced cronyism does anything to his moral standing?

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If it will make you feel better. I will accuse Bush of Corruption.

Bush is corrupt-- as corrupt a president as has ever presided.

Compare this with BVT´s opening statement. Just because BVT would have been right to accuse Bush of corruption, doesn´t mean that he did.

(I don´t get the point of this argument)

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Intending only to bm, but isn't cronyism corruption?

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sozobe wrote:

Suggest, perhaps, but Bear went ahead to clarify that's not what he meant and it is in fact not what he said -- so the putting words in other people's mouths accusation is a tad disingenuous, no?

Since D'artagnan misrepresented my position, no.

sozobe wrote:

Or -- we agree that Bush has practiced cronyism, yes?

We are not agreed that he has practiced it more than the average amount.

sozobe wrote:

Or again -- do you think that the fact that Bush has practiced cronyism does anything to his moral standing?

No, since we have not established that he has been unusual in this regard. I'm sure that you don't want to make the case.

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ebrown_p wrote:

If it will make you feel better. I will accuse Bush of Corruption.

Bush is corrupt-- as corrupt a president as has ever presided.

Compare this with BVT´s opening statement. Just because BVT would have been right to accuse Bush of corruption, doesn´t mean that he did.

(I don´t get the point of this argument)

Please give one example of Bush's corruption.

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Brandon9000 wrote:

The opening post suggests that Bush doesn't have the moral standing to criticize corruption at the UN.

i would agree with that, but cronyism was alleged as the basis for questioning his moral standing, not corruption. earlier, you stated that it accused Mr. Bush of corruption. in the remarks i quoted, Mr. Bush claimed to be commited to rooting out cronyism and corruption. if he couldn't root out cronyism from FEMA in four years, his authority to urge others to weed out corruption is compromised.

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"Unusual"? How is "unusual" a standard in deciding cronyism? Why does "more than the average amount" matter?

"But your honor, everyone was stealing cars so I thought it'd be fine..."

If D'Art misrepresented your position, what is your position? That cronyism is occasionally OK, and it's OK-ness is decided by how many other people do it?

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yitwail, it also was more than rooting out -- cronyism in FEMA had been rooted out by Clinton, in a very purposeful campaign based on his reaction to how FEMA handled Hurricane Andrew. FEMA had a bunch of actually qualified people at the helm -- who Bush replaced with cronies.

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sozobe wrote:

"Unusual"? How is "unusual" a standard in deciding cronyism? Why does "more than the average amount" matter?

"But your honor, everyone was stealing cars so I thought it'd be fine..."

I have no specific knowledge that Bush has practiced cronyism, but simply assume that most politicians do. If, in fact, Bush has practiced about the same degree of cronyism as other presidents, it does not compromise his moral authority compared to most other presidents. If they can talk about eliminating corruption, than he can too.

sozobe wrote:

If D'Art misrepresented your position, what is your position? That cronyism is occasionally OK, and it's OK-ness is decided by how many other people do it?

He misrepresented my position by suggesting that I was asking for a proof that Bush had no moral standing.

I see no point in you continuing to post these obviously logically flawed arguments that can be countered instantly.

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And if it's okay if other people are doing it why is Bush calling for it to stop in the UN?

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squinney wrote:

And if it's okay if other people are doing it why is Bush calling for it to stop in the UN?

I said that if one president practices the same amount of cronyism that others do, then he has about the same amount of moral authority. I also said that I do not consider cronysim to be corruption. This in no way precludes Bush from quite properly criticising the taking of bribes, etc.

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to sozobe, re. FEMA & Clinton: that too. apparently, he replaced them with people who were ideologically correct but underqualified. if that's not cronyism it's certainly mismanagement.

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You're the one who put "compared to most other presidents" into the discussion. It's a nice little addition, but quite beside the point.

Does actively practicing cronyism compromise one's moral authority or not?

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Brandon9000 wrote:

squinney wrote:
And if it's okay if other people are doing it why is Bush calling for it to stop in the UN?

I said that if one president practices the same amount of cronyism that others do, then he has about the same amount of moral authority. I also said that I do not consider cronysim to be corruption. This in no way precludes Bush from quite properly criticising the taking of bribes, etc.

And if Bush practices the same amount of cronyism as other leaders in the UN, then he has no moral authority to ask them to stop. So, why was in in his speech?

What's the problem, Brandon? The rest of us get it.

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squinney wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
squinney wrote:
And if it's okay if other people are doing it why is Bush calling for it to stop in the UN?

I said that if one president practices the same amount of cronyism that others do, then he has about the same amount of moral authority. I also said that I do not consider cronysim to be corruption. This in no way precludes Bush from quite properly criticising the taking of bribes, etc.

And if Bush practices the same amount of cronyism as other leaders in the UN, then he has no moral authority to ask them to stop. So, why was in in his speech?

What's the problem, Brandon? The rest of us get it.

Apparently not since I have consistently compared Bush to other presidents, and not to people at the UN. If someone appoints a favorite to a job, it hardly precludes him from criticising the taking of bribes. What is it exactly that you imbeciles get?

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sozobe wrote:

You're the one who put "compared to most other presidents" into the discussion. It's a nice little addition, but quite beside the point.

Does actively practicing cronyism compromise one's moral authority or not?

First of all, I have no knowledge that Bush is guilty of this, but simply assume that most politicians are. If one has practiced cronyism to an average degree, it does not make it improper for that person to criticize serious crimes such as bribe taking.

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yitwail wrote:

will it help if i quote Mr. Bush speaking before the World Bank, in which he used the phrase "cronyism and corruption?"

Quote:
In all these areas -- health, education, hunger and debt -- America is committed to walking along side leaders and nations that are traveling the hard but rewarding path of political and economic reform, nations that are committed to rooting out cronyism and corruption, nations that are committed to building the institutions of freedom and good government.

Source

Bush didn't say bribery.

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brandon wrote: "..you imbeciles..."
clever.

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Let's face it...without cronyism and corruption, this guy would probably be a coked-up drunk without a job. The height of irony.

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Give Bush This He's Nervy

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