Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional

Bella Dea wrote:

Why should those who don't believe in God win? Seriously. I have just as much right to say it with the "under God" part as you do to say it without. You want to talk about hypocrisy...why is it that when you want it out it's "constitutional" but when we want it in, we are religious fanatics?

you are assuming that everyone who wants the pledge to revert to the pre-mccarthy era text is an atheist.

pro-UGers love to say, "it can be any god". but, when pressed repeatedly, judge roy moore, one of the main players in the get-as-much-god-in-there-as-you-can movement, admitted that he believed that the referrence to god was the judaeo-christian god. which by extension also includes allah.

no news flash there, everybody knows which god is meant. but is rarely admitted. and that is dishonest.

so if you are not jewish, christian or muslim, why would you ever want or agree to pledge allegiance to someone else's god ?

if you, personally, are a christian, how would you react if the government of your country insisted that any time you pledged your loyalty to the country, you must also pledge loyalty to Odin ? or as frank has mentioned, zeus ? how about the great salmon of the celtic tradition ?

would you willingly do that ?

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This is not a quarrel between theists and atheists. The whole point is that -- due to the way the First Amendment has been interpreted by the Supreme Court -- the separation of church and state must be complete and uncompromising. The government may not prevent you from worshipping whatever god (or gods) you choose to believe in. But, at the same time, the government may not promote the worship of any god (or gods) nor can such worship be endorsed in any way in facilities which are run by the governmewnt or with funds supplied by that government.

As Don'tTreadOnMe has rightly said, this protects the Christians and Jews from being subjected to a Muezzin's call to prayer in a public school or any other building maintained with government funds. Quite fairly, it also protects Muslims from having to listen to, say, the Lord's Prayer. And it protects the few atheists from having to listen to exhortations to any god.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:
Why should those who don't believe in God win? Seriously. I have just as much right to say it with the "under God" part as you do to say it without. You want to talk about hypocrisy...why is it that when you want it out it's "constitutional" but when we want it in, we are religious fanatics?

you are assuming that everyone who wants the pledge to revert to the pre-mccarthy era text is an atheist.

pro-UGers love to say, "it can be any god". but, when pressed repeatedly, judge roy moore, one of the main players in the get-as-much-god-in-there-as-you-can movement, admitted that he believed that the referrence to god was the judaeo-christian god. which by extension also includes allah.

no news flash there, everybody knows which god is meant. but is rarely admitted. and that is dishonest.

so if you are not jewish, christian or muslim, why would you ever want or agree to pledge allegiance to someone else's god ?

if you, personally, are a christian, how would you react if the government of your country insisted that any time you pledged your loyalty to the country, you must also pledge loyalty to Odin ? or as frank has mentioned, zeus ? how about the great salmon of the celtic tradition ?

would you willingly do that ?

If I were living in another country that was founded on a different religion I wouldn't say anything. That was the founding of their country. If I grew up in a Muslim country and they did the same for Allah then I still wouldn't complain because that is the way that country is. When in Rome...

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The country was founded by Freemasons...

Should we all do the secret handshake of alliegence?

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You're missing the point, Baldimo, as usual. This country was founded on the principle that there could be no state religion, that everyone was free to worship -- or not worship -- as they pleased. The founders were very much opposed to the forced Anglicanism in England and the forced Lutheranism in the Scandinavian countries and the forced Roman Catholicism in France, Italy and Spain.The fact that most of them were themselves Christians was seen as an irrelevance.

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ebrown_p wrote:

The country was founded by Freemasons...

Should we all do the secret handshake of alliegence?

Who had a belief in God and who just happened to be Christians. Tired of being attacked by Catholics left their homeland and settled west in what is now the US. They wanted to be able to worship God as they wanted to not be told how to by a govt.

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Baldimo wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
The country was founded by Freemasons...

Should we all do the secret handshake of alliegence?

Who had a belief in God and who just happened to be Christians. Tired of being attacked by Catholics left their homeland and settled west in what is now the US. They wanted to be able to worship God as they wanted to not be told how to by a govt.

Holy smoke! Where do you come up with such solid conventional* wisdom?

You might want to check on which Christian sect was burning, branding, whipping or pole-axing which other Christian sect during the settling period. The pious Pilgrims of Massachusetts, the ones we Americans love to have our children dress up as, were dissenters from the Church of England who thought that the Reformation hadn't quite killed and imprisoned enough Catholics. The Mayflower folk wanted to worship God as they wanted to alright and they wanted everybody else to worship the same way or else. Ask the folks they threw out of the Colony and into Rhode Island and Connecticut.

If you are referring to The Founding Fathers that's one hundred and eighty years later and about one hundred and eighty degrees off the mark. There were a scattering of Episcopalians amongst them because it was the State Religion of several States, but Deists like Jefferson brought a halt to official religion in public offices opposing such figures as Patrick Henry who wanted to fund the official church through taxation. See Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom, 1786.

The history of this nation is one long struggle after another to keep it's government free from the bonds and rites of a particular sect of believers at the expense of all of it's other citizens.

Joe(The majority never sees the injustice it wields against the lessers)Nation

*conventional-- that is: wrong.

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applause for Joe (who of course is not here being on a2k sabbatical.)

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Joe Nation wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
The country was founded by Freemasons...

Should we all do the secret handshake of alliegence?

Who had a belief in God and who just happened to be Christians. Tired of being attacked by Catholics left their homeland and settled west in what is now the US. They wanted to be able to worship God as they wanted to not be told how to by a govt.

Holy smoke! Where do you come up with such solid conventional* wisdom?

You might want to check on which Christian sect was burning, branding, whipping or pole-axing which other Christian sect during the settling period. The pious Pilgrims of Massachusetts, the ones we Americans love to have our children dress up as, were dissenters from the Church of England who thought that the Reformation hadn't quite killed and imprisoned enough Catholics. The Mayflower folk wanted to worship God as they wanted to alright and they wanted everybody else to worship the same way or else. Ask the folks they threw out of the Colony and into Rhode Island and Connecticut.

If you are referring to The Founding Fathers that's one hundred and eighty years later and about one hundred and eighty degrees off the mark. There were a scattering of Episcopalians amongst them because it was the State Religion of several States, but Deists like Jefferson brought a halt to official religion in public offices opposing such figures as Patrick Henry who wanted to fund the official church through taxation. See Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom, 1786.

The history of this nation is one long struggle after another to keep it's government free from the bonds and rites of a particular sect of believers at the expense of all of it's other citizens.

Joe(The majority never sees the injustice it wields against the lessers)Nation

*conventional-- that is: wrong.

I guess I got some of my history wrong. I still stand by the founders being very religious and founding our nation on Christian thought and belief.

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Baldimo writes:

Quote:

I still stand by the founders being very religious and founding our nation on Christian thought and belief.

If you will do more than try to remember what you learned in high school history you will see that, once the various entreaties to some Almighty were dispensed with, the Founders were much more interested in forming a Republic where commerce and liberty could both flourish. Their philosophy, if one can even make a statement about their general philosophy, was more akin to the Enlightenment than the Reformation, more Voltaire than Great Awakening.
They were trying to form a more perfect union, not establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. They were careful not to place one form of worship before any other, which inserting UNDER GOD in the pledge clearly does. They would not have done such a thing to free citizens, neither should we.

Joe(okay, see you later)Nation

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Baldimo wrote:

Joe Nation wrote:
Baldimo wrote:

Who had a belief in God and who just happened to be Christians. Tired of being attacked by Catholics left their homeland and settled west in what is now the US. They wanted to be able to worship God as they wanted to not be told how to by a govt.

Holy smoke! Where do you come up with such solid conventional* wisdom?

You might want to check on which Christian sect was burning, branding, whipping or pole-axing which other Christian sect during the settling period.

Joe(The majority never sees the injustice it wields against the lessers)Nation

*conventional-- that is: wrong.

I guess I got some of my history wrong. I still stand by the founders being very religious and founding our nation on Christian thought and belief.

<<ebrown rummages frantically through boxes of junk>>

Where the heck did I leave my pole-axe!

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Baldimo wrote:

They wanted to be able to worship God as they wanted to not be told how to by a govt.

and that is all that i want and expect as a citizen of the united states.

my god has nothing to do with christianity, judaism or islam. so why would i jump for joy at the idea of being forced to praise someone else's god if i want to pledge allegiance to my country ? or to constantly hear other people's prayers to their god ?

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Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional

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