Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional

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SAN FRANCISCO--Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was ruled unconstitutional Wednesday by a federal judge who granted legal standing to two families represented by an atheist who lost his previous battle before the U.S. Supreme Court.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

The battle begins again. . . .

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Kids watch the news and see how this country is corrupt, inept, and going down the tubes... so does anyone think they would take the pledge seriously anyway? Kids aren't stupid and right and wrong are black and white issues to them. Until our country's principles are taught by example kids won't think about the pledge IMO.

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"It's a way to get this issue to the Supreme Court for a final decision to be made," said fund attorney Jared Leland.

I believe the Supreme Court will have to also rule the Pledge as currently offered, as Unconstitutional.

If I recall, the "under God" was added in the 50's, so I would expect the pledge to be re-written again.

This, given the current state of the Court will make for interesting debate.

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I don´t understand why this is important to either side.

Technically I think the atheist are correct in a pedantic way... but why should I care? Aren´t there pressing issues?

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Wel..I am not even an atheist, ebrown...and it matter to me.

I certainly do not want my country to be "...under God..."...

...because the only way that makes any sense is to have a particular "God" be designated as the "God" under which we are.

The "pledge" is an affirmation of one's loyalty and allegience to this country...and to liberty and justice.

It makes absolutely no differnce if the nation is "under" some god or not.

It should not be in there. The phrase has absolutely no bearing on the intentions of the person making the pledge...which, as I noted, is about country and loyalty and allegience...

...not about any gods.

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Frank

You put it much more eloquently than I could.........

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The pledge seems fair.

The Atheists don´t believe in God. The Christians don´t believe in ¨liberty and justice¨.

At least it´s balanced.

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Frank,

You may be missing my point...

The pledge is not very important except to a small number of people. Most high school kids muddle through it without thought. The rest of us rarely say it.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I am just asking ¨aren´t there more important issues¨. I care much more about ¨sneak and peak warrants¨, International treaties, teaching evolution in schools and immigration reform.

I see the term ¨God¨ in the pledge as more the amorphus ideal of goodness than the Anthropomorphic Diety worshipped by Christian.

The word ¨God¨ is used idiomatically quite a bit, where it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Saying the pledge doesn´t obligate you to believe or do anything against any theistic or atheistic belief system any more than saying ¨Goodbye¨ or ¨go to Hell¨ does.

I agree with you that technically God shouldn´t be there. I am just saying that in the large scheme of things this isn´t worth lengthy court battles and endless public discussion.

So I will stop...

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ebrown_p wrote:

Frank,

You may be missing my point...

The pledge is not very important except to a small number of people. Most high school kids muddle through it without thought. The rest of us rarely say it.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I am just asking ¨aren´t there more important issues¨. I care much more about ¨sneak and peak warrants¨, International treaties, teaching evolution in schools and immigration reform.

I see the term ¨God¨ in the pledge as more the amorphus ideal of goodness than the Anthropomorphic Diety worshipped by Christian.

The word ¨God¨ is used idiomatically quite a bit, where it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Saying the pledge doesn´t obligate you to believe or do anything against any theistic or atheistic belief system any more than saying ¨Goodbye¨ or ¨go to Hell¨ does.

I agree with you that technically God shouldn´t be there. I am just saying that in the large scheme of things this isn´t worth lengthy court battles and endless public discussion.

So I will stop...

Actually...those of us who attend township council meetings get to recite the pledge as adults once a week.

I have on occasion become unpopular for substituting "Zeus" for "God" in the pledge.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
Frank,

You may be missing my point...

The pledge is not very important except to a small number of people. Most high school kids muddle through it without thought. The rest of us rarely say it.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I am just asking ¨aren´t there more important issues¨. I care much more about ¨sneak and peak warrants¨, International treaties, teaching evolution in schools and immigration reform.

I see the term ¨God¨ in the pledge as more the amorphus ideal of goodness than the Anthropomorphic Diety worshipped by Christian.

The word ¨God¨ is used idiomatically quite a bit, where it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Saying the pledge doesn´t obligate you to believe or do anything against any theistic or atheistic belief system any more than saying ¨Goodbye¨ or ¨go to Hell¨ does.

I agree with you that technically God shouldn´t be there. I am just saying that in the large scheme of things this isn´t worth lengthy court battles and endless public discussion.

So I will stop...

Actually...those of us who attend township council meetings get to recite the pledge as adults once a week.

I have on occasion become unpopular for substituting "Zeus" for "God" in the pledge.

Why not say God at all?

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Baldimo wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Frank,

You may be missing my point...

The pledge is not very important except to a small number of people. Most high school kids muddle through it without thought. The rest of us rarely say it.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I am just asking ¨aren´t there more important issues¨. I care much more about ¨sneak and peak warrants¨, International treaties, teaching evolution in schools and immigration reform.

I see the term ¨God¨ in the pledge as more the amorphus ideal of goodness than the Anthropomorphic Diety worshipped by Christian.

The word ¨God¨ is used idiomatically quite a bit, where it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Saying the pledge doesn´t obligate you to believe or do anything against any theistic or atheistic belief system any more than saying ¨Goodbye¨ or ¨go to Hell¨ does.

I agree with you that technically God shouldn´t be there. I am just saying that in the large scheme of things this isn´t worth lengthy court battles and endless public discussion.

So I will stop...

Actually...those of us who attend township council meetings get to recite the pledge as adults once a week.

I have on occasion become unpopular for substituting "Zeus" for "God" in the pledge.
Why not say God at all?

I am assuming you meant to convey the notion of simply standing silently during the words "...under God..." which may, or may not, have been your intention.

If I am correct in my assumption...well...perhaps it is because I see the words as a kind of "in your face" move...and I tend to move nose to nose on those occasions.

Standing silently is an option. Substituting "Zeus"...calms other spirits, so to speak.

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Frank,

I think Zeus is a fine way to deal with it, and make a point at the same time.

In the eighties, I was sent to the high school principal's office for refusing to say the pledge. At the time, I wasn't anti-religious and was reacting more to what I saw as a meaning gesture, than to the invocation of a diety.

I was threatened with suspension. Then the school backed down and I was allowed to sit silently.

Let me just say that winning this small political battle was one of the most important parts of my high school education.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
Frank,

You may be missing my point...

The pledge is not very important except to a small number of people. Most high school kids muddle through it without thought. The rest of us rarely say it.

I agree with everything you are saying.

I am just asking ¨aren´t there more important issues¨. I care much more about ¨sneak and peak warrants¨, International treaties, teaching evolution in schools and immigration reform.

I see the term ¨God¨ in the pledge as more the amorphus ideal of goodness than the Anthropomorphic Diety worshipped by Christian.

The word ¨God¨ is used idiomatically quite a bit, where it has been stripped of its religious meaning. Saying the pledge doesn´t obligate you to believe or do anything against any theistic or atheistic belief system any more than saying ¨Goodbye¨ or ¨go to Hell¨ does.

I agree with you that technically God shouldn´t be there. I am just saying that in the large scheme of things this isn´t worth lengthy court battles and endless public discussion.

So I will stop...

Actually...those of us who attend township council meetings get to recite the pledge as adults once a week.

I have on occasion become unpopular for substituting "Zeus" for "God" in the pledge.
Why not say God at all?

I am assuming you meant to convey the notion of simply standing silently during the words "...under God..." which may, or may not, have been your intention.

If I am correct in my assumption...well...perhaps it is because I see the words as a kind of "in your face" move...and I tend to move nose to nose on those occasions.

Standing silently is an option. Substituting "Zeus"...calms other spirits, so to speak.

Feel free to work it how you wish, I just hope it doesn't go away for those of us in the MAJORITY who like it the way it is.

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Meanwhile, in the Palmetto State:

McMaster: Pledge OK In SC Schools
Columbia, S.C.- September 14, 2005 Attorney General Henry McMaster made the following statement after a federal judge in San Francisco ruled unconstitutional the reciting of the pledge of allegiance in schools.

"This ridiculous decision in no way prevents South Carolina schoolchildren from continuing to recite the pledge of allegiance each day. The decision is limited only to the federal ninth circuit and will almost certainly be overturned, as the Supreme Court has previously suggested the pledge is constitutional."

"Our teachers and schoolchildren in South Carolina may, and should, continue to legally recite the pledge of allegiance as state law requires."

"These wacky rulings may soon become a thing of the past with President Bush continuing to appoint conservative jurists to the federal judiciary who interpret and apply the constitution properly instead of legislating from the bench."

Note: SC Code 59-1-455 requires all public school students K-12 to each day say the pledge of allegiance, and allows for students to decline participation if they so desire.

# # #

Contact: Trey Walker
Chief Executive Assistant
803-734-4091
[email protected]

Office of Attorney General Henry McMaster | PO Box 11549 | Columbia | SC | 29211

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Quote:

Feel free to work it how you wish, I just hope it doesn't go away for those of us in the MAJORITY who like it the way it is.

If we always did what the MAJORITY liked, we wouldn't need a Bill of Rights would we?

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Baldimo wrote:

those of us in the MAJORITY who like it the way it is.

ahhh, there it is.

might makes right.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Baldimo wrote:
those of us in the MAJORITY who like it the way it is.

ahhh, there it is.

might makes right.

Most of the time it should. Don't forget those on the left often say the same thing when it comes to things they believe in. Look at Air America and that weak ass show of Majority Report. Who do they think they are kidding? Majority in their own minds.

The left keeps saying that the majority of American's don't like Bush am I right? If so then I guess according to your rules the minority of Americans are right to think he is doing a good job?

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Baldimo wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
Baldimo wrote:
those of us in the MAJORITY who like it the way it is.

ahhh, there it is.

might makes right.

Most of the time it should. Don't forget those on the left often say the same thing when it comes to things they believe in. Look at Air America and that weak ass show of Majority Report. Who do they think they are kidding? Majority in their own minds.

i don't listen to air america, so i couldn't tell ya what they say...

i hate talk radio ! errrrrrrrrrrr!!!!

The left keeps saying that the majority of American's don't like Bush am I right? If so then I guess according to your rules the minority of Americans are right to think he is doing a good job?

heh.. well, actually it's the polls that say bush's popularity is falling. both of my parents are lifelong, full on republicans and even they've had enough of the guy's shenanigans.

but you are confusing a temporary state ( a term of office) with a permanant state, which in this case is whatever number of people insisting that other people believe as they do.

that's not freedom.

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I knew the pledge was unconstitutional the day my elementery teacher informed the class of the amendment. Unfortunately, a kid with no money and unconcerned parents has no voice in such things.

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Judge: School Pledge Is Unconstitutional

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