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AFTER THE BREAK OF DAY

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:25 pm
Setanta wrote:

FEMA has been gutted, and turned into a lickspittle of "Homeland/Thousand Year Reich Security."


This is not true. FEMA was significantly upgraded after Hurricane Andrew in the late '80s. Their activities are prescribed by law. They provide back up resources to local government in the event of disaster. They are not constituted to, posess, have at the ready, or even directly provide first responder emergency services. Business operations I managed worked with FEMA on the recovery from several natural disasters, most notably the recovery from some fires in Oakland Ca about 12 years ago which destroyed about 2200 hillside homes - just weeks before the start of seasonal; rains. I personally managed this recovery effort under contract with the city and FEMA. I found them to be bureaucrats like all government types, but otherwise competent and very responsive.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:48 pm
What planet are you living on, George? The FEMA of twelve years ago no longer exists. Things don't remain static after your experience of them. You really need to get out of the house more often. Buy a newspaper, read it.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:18 pm
We have operated contracts with FEMA continuously since then. There has been no significant change in their enabling legislation or funding since then. At most some here alleged that the new added layer of bureaucracy might have delayed needed decisions by a day. (Although no specific evidence of this has emerged.) My point is that this - if it occurred - would not have materially changed the outcome. Moreover the new Homeland Security department provided more direct access to the military resources that have proved so important to the recovery effort.

The proximate causes of the event at hand were (1) the failure of the lake levee (which may well be partly a Federal agency problem); (2) The failure of the back up power system for the stormwater pumping stations (clearly a locaql government issue); (3) The failure of emergency response planning to consider the possibility of flooding (also a clear local govermnment issue); (4) and the complete breakdown of local government communications systems after the hurricane (also a local government issue).

It is true that the war in Iraq has yielded reduced funding for some Corps of Engineers planning efforts, and that some of these may well have involved the lower Mississippi watershed. However none of this would have affected the outcome in this event.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:28 pm
horseshit
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:
No matter how the Bushophobes care to spin it, the fact reamains that by law it is the responsibilty of a state's governor to request Federal assisstance, a happenstance acknowledged and accommodated by Louisiana's own disaster plan (See Footnote); all the Federal declaration of disaster does is authorize the government to provide the funds and specific other support requested. All Nagin did, apart from dither, was complain, What Blanco did, along with dithering, was tell the Federal Government it was her party, but the Federal Government was welcome to pick up the tab and haul off the garbage.

Satellite photo taken 10:00 AM CDT Wednesday Morning, August 31 clearly shows Nagin and Blanco failed to utilize the resources still available to them, doing nothing to prevent the onrushing disaster.

http://www.blindmanphoto.com/images/Stop-Blaming-FEMA.jpg


Footnote
Quote:
:STATE OF LOUISIANA
EMERGENCY OPERATIONS PLAN
SUPPLEMENT 1A


SOUTHEAST LOUISIANA
HURRICANE EVACUATION
AND SHELTERING PLAN
REVISED JANUARY 2000

PART I: GENERAL
A. SUMMARY:

The Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan is
intended to provide a framework within which the parishes can coordinate
their actions with State government in order to deal with a catastrophic
hurricane.
A catastrophic hurricane is defined as a hurricane in Category 3 Slow (5 mph
or less forward speed), and categories 4 or 5 on the Saffir-Simpson Scale of
hurricane strength (See Annex A). Hurricanes in Category 1, 2 and 3 Fast,
are considered less destructive and can be met through the use of normal
emergency preparedness procedures on the part of the Parish and State
governments.
The overall strategy for dealing with a catastrophic hurricane is to evacuate as
much of the at risk population as possible from the path of the storm and
relocate them to a place of relative safety outside the projected high water
mark of the storm surge flooding and hurricane force winds ...

... B. PURPOSE
It is the intent of this plan to establish guidelines for the direction, control and
coordination of evacuation of the Southeast Louisiana Region in order to
protect life and property ...

... Organization and Assignment of Responsibilities
The organization and assignment of primary and secondary responsibilities
are detailed in the State Emergency Operations Plan (EOP). Listed below are
the key participants and their roles in the event of a catastrophic hurricane:
1. Governor:
a. Proclaim a State of Emergency.
b. Issue supplementary declarations and orders, as the situation
requires.
c. Authorize and direct the use of State government personnel and
other resources to deal with the emergency.
d. Authorize and direct the authorities of non-risk parishes to
coordinate the opening and operation of shelters with DSS in
conjunction with ARC, and to lend all possible assistance to the
evacuation and shelter effort.
e. Request Federal government assistance as needed.

The Governors of other states requested specific FEMA manpower and material assistance in timely manner, as did Governor Jeb Bush of Florida when dealing with Ivan last year. Blanco did not, in fact insisted on maintaining control, and officially requested FEMA manpower and material assistance on Wednesday, August 31:

Quote:
... Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law ...

... Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said.
Source



Unsurprising now would be Blanco's objection to Nagin's most recent manadatory evacuation order; after all, only the Governor can order, and request Federal funding for, such a thing, you know.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:29 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
We have operated contracts with FEMA continuously since then. There has been no significant change in their enabling legislation or funding since then. At most some here alleged that the new added layer of bureaucracy might have delayed needed decisions by a day. (Although no specific evidence of this has emerged.) My point is that this - if it occurred - would not have materially changed the outcome. Moreover the new Homeland Security department provided more direct access to the military resources that have proved so important to the recovery effort.


What Set said:
Setanta wrote:
Buy a newspaper, read it.

When I read the following (although it's yesterday's news), I get some minor doubts:

Quote:
Article Last Updated: 9/06/2005 02:04 AM


Frustrated: Fire crews to hand out fliers for FEMA


By Lisa Rosetta
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune

ATLANTA - Not long after some 1,000 firefighters sat down for eight hours of training, the whispering began: "What are we doing here?"
As New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta.
Many of the firefighters, assembled from Utah and throughout the United States by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, thought they were going to be deployed as emergency workers.
Instead, they have learned they are going to be community-relations officers for FEMA, shuffled throughout the Gulf Coast region to disseminate fliers and a phone number: 1-800-621-FEMA.
On Monday, some firefighters stuck in the staging area at the Sheraton peeled off their FEMA-issued shirts and stuffed them in backpacks, saying they refuse to represent the federal agency.
Federal officials are unapologetic.
"I would go back and ask the firefighter to revisit his commitment to FEMA, to firefighting and to the citizens of this country," said FEMA spokeswoman Mary Hudak.
The firefighters - or at least the fire chiefs who assigned them to come to Atlanta - knew what the assignment would be, Hudak said.
"The initial call to action very specifically says we're looking for two-person fire teams to do community relations," she said. "So if there is a breakdown [in communication], it was likely in their own departments."
One fire chief from Texas agreed that the call was clear to work as community-relations officers. But he wonders why the 1,400 firefighters FEMA attracted to Atlanta aren't being put to better use. He also questioned why the U.S. Department of Homeland Security - of which FEMA is a part - has not responded better to the disaster.
The firefighters, several of whom are from Utah, were told to bring backpacks, sleeping bags, first-aid kits and Meals Ready to Eat. They were told to prepare for "austere conditions." Many of them came with awkward fire gear and expected to wade in floodwaters, sift through rubble and save lives.
"They've got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified," said a Texas firefighter. "We're sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven't been contacted yet."
The firefighter, who has encouraged his superiors back home not to send any more volunteers for now, declined to give his name because FEMA has warned them not to talk to reporters.
On Monday, two firefighters from South Jordan and two from Layton headed for San Antonio to help hurricane evacuees there. Four firefighters from Roy awaited their marching orders, crossing their fingers that they would get to do rescue and recovery work, rather than paperwork.
"A lot of people are bickering because there are rumors they'll just be handing out fliers," said Roy firefighter Logan Layne, adding that his squad hopes to be in the thick of the action. "But we'll do anything. We'll do whatever they need us to do."
While FEMA's community-relations job may be an important one - displaced hurricane victims need basic services and a variety of resources - it may be a job best suited for someone else, say firefighters assembled at the Sheraton.
"It's a misallocation of resources. Completely," said the Texas firefighter.
"It's just an under-utilization of very talented people," said South Salt Lake Fire Chief Steve Foote, who sent a team of firefighters to Atlanta. "I was hoping once they saw the level of people . . . they would shift gears a little bit."
Foote said his crews would be better used doing the jobs they are trained to do.
But Louis H. Botta, a coordinating officer for FEMA, said sending out firefighters on community relations makes sense. They already have had background checks and meet the qualifications to be sworn as a federal employee. They have medical training that will prove invaluable as they come across hurricane victims in the field.
A firefighter from California said he feels ill prepared to even carry out the job FEMA has assigned him. In the field, Hurricane Katrina victims will approach him with questions about everything from insurance claims to financial assistance.
"My only answer to them is, '1-800-621-FEMA,' " he said. "I'm not used to not being in the know."
Roy Fire Chief Jon Ritchie said his crews would be a "little frustrated" if they were assigned to hand out phone numbers at an evacuee center in Texas rather than find and treat victims of the disaster.
Also of concern to some of the firefighters is the cost borne by their municipalities in the wake of their absence. Cities are picking up the tab to fill the firefighters' vacancies while they work 30 days for the federal government.
"There are all of these guys with all of this training and we're sending them out to hand out a phone number," an Oregon firefighter said. "They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste."
Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.
But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. The crew's first assignment: to stand beside President Bush as he tours devastated areas.
Source
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:33 pm
On political issues resulting from the hurricane situation -

I am perplexed about the lack of action at a key point, which was when a medical helicopter first came to the convention center and was shot at (whether directly or not I don't know), and then left because of the danger.

After that the medevacs stayed away and food didn't show up for days. Why then did they not get national guard quickly come and back up the med evacn and then food distribution. I no longer remember the exact timing, but I think I read that some national guard was in town.

Seems to be a giant communication gap there, at the least, or a "let go" situation for a lot of suffering people.

I like to hear more about the circumstances of that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:49 pm
I suppose we all would like to know more. However If I was operating a helo squadron involved in rescuing stranded people, and I was faced with far more victims than I could immediately handle, I believe I would concentrate first on helping those who weren't shooting at my people.

The New Orleans police communications system had completely broken down and that no doubt added to the difficulty.

Did the State or city government ever turn over control of the situation to any federal agency?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 03:55 pm
Quote:
Posted on Wed, Sep. 07, 2005



Pensacola pilots 'counseled' for non-assigned New Orleans rescues


BILL KACZOR
Associated Press

PENSACOLA, Fla. - Two Navy helicopter pilots were praised but then reminded of the importance of supply missions after delivering their cargo and then rescuing 110 hurricane victims in New Orleans instead of immediately returning to base, the military said Wednesday.

One of the pilots was temporarily assigned to a kennel but that was not punishment, said Patrick Nichols, a civilian public affairs officer at Pensacola Naval Air Station.

"They were not reprimanded," Nichols said. "They were counseled."

Lt. Matt Udkow and Lt. David Shand returned to the base from their mission Aug. 30, a day after Hurricane Katrina made landfall, Nichols said.

Udkow and Shand were met by Cmdr. Michael Holdener, who lauded them for the rescues but reminded them their orders were to fly water and other supplies to three destinations in Mississippi - the Stennis Space Center, Pascagoula and Gulfport - and then return to Pensacola, said Lt. Jim Hoeft, another Navy spokesman.

"The Hollywood role of this thing is search and rescue," Nichols told The Associated Press. "Logistics was just as important. They realize that."

The two air crews picked up a Coast Guard radio call that helicopters were needed for rescues in New Orleans, Hoeft said. They were out of radio range to Pensacola, so they decided to fly their helicopters to New Orleans and join the rescue effort without permission.

It took only minutes for the H-3 helicopters to fly to New Orleans, where Udkow's crew plucked people off rooftops. Shand hovered over the roof of an apartment building where more than a dozen people had been stranded. When he returned to get more, two crew members entered the building and found two blind residents and led them to the helicopter.

Udkow later received permission to continue with the rescue missions when he landed to refuel in New Orleans.

Both helicopters returned to Pensacola, about 200 miles east of New Orleans, by dark, as required by flight rules. Nichols was unsure whether any supplies went undelivered as a result of the rescues.

The pilots and Holdener weren't available for interviews Wednesday, Nichols said. He said Udkow was flying and Shand was resting between missions.

"We all want to be the guys who rescue people," Holdener told The New York Times. "But they were told we have other missions we have to do night now and that is not the priority."

The air over New Orleans was so thick with helicopters a few days later that crews were having a hard time finding people who needed rescuing, but that was not the case when Udkow and Shand flew their rescue missions.

"I would be looking at a family of two on one roof and maybe a family of six on another roof, and I would have to make a decision who to rescue," Udkow told the Times. "It wasn't easy."

Nichols said Udkow was in no way being punished by being put in charge of a temporary kennel in Pensacola for pets of military personnel who had been evacuated from hurricane-stricken areas.

"It's a collateral duty," Nichols said. "These guys don't just fly. They do other stuff."
Source
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 04:03 pm
The Navy has lots of helicopter pilots, and during an emergency those who can be relied on to follow orders and use the excellent radio equipment in their aircraft to communicate changed circumstances to their home bases are more important to successful operations than those who do not communicate and who invent their own priorities. It is a fine line between desirable initiative and childish impulsive response. It appears the navy officials believe this event involved more of the latter than the former. They are generally very good at making such determinations, and the report at hand does not provide enough detail for us to seriously question that judgement.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 04:08 pm
That was one shooter (I take it) at a main shelter. There were known medical patients needing urgent help. A lot of us saw it in the news or on the net. I didn't expect that no one would go back for a long long time.

I am not asking this while knowing the answer.. but I have been wondering about it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 04:10 pm
On the shooter at the convention center, I didn't mean that the helicopter should go right back sans backup; am wondering about lack of backup.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 04:24 pm
I'll have to look for it, but I read somewhere this morning that the FAA is reporting that the shooting of which you speak didn't happen.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 05:52 pm
Well, I've gone through every page I visited today and can't find it. It was inside a general article, so it doesn't jump out by headline.

Don't hold me to it until I can back it up, but I read that the FAA investigated and found no report of a rescue helicopter being shot at from the Superdome, and the FAA was in control of all air traffic including military at the time.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:22 pm
Hmm, I only saw reports on google news.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:24 pm
I thought it was the convention center, close to positive.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 06:41 pm
I don't know the answer one way or the other. However do know the FAA doesn't "control" the rescue air traffic. It does provide traffic advisories to medium and high altitude traffic in the area. However, in most areas its low attitude connumications coverage isn't that good.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 10:44 pm
Osso,

It was at the convention center. The Superintendent of the New Orleans Police Department just finished on Larry King Live and he explained the whole thing. As a matter of fact, he was even in a helicopter trying to direct boats to those trapped on rooftops and that helicopter was also shot at.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 11:08 pm
That was on Wednesday morning, right?

People didn't get food for another two days, and folks with serious med conditions weren't evacuated for those days?
I am not sure of timing, that is my sense of it.

I was in disbelief watching nothing happen. I am not at all sure of the whys, would like to know.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 11:12 pm
Osso,

Well, unfortunately, those doing the shooting did have at least something to do with some of the delay. It may not have been much but it was in some part. The Superintendent of Police said one of his SWAT commanders had to go into the Convention on thirty occassions because of what was going on in there. I realize those people were hungry, scared, tired, and just plain out of their minds with worry, but, how could shooting at help ever be an answer?
0 Replies
 
 

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