0
   

AFTER THE BREAK OF DAY

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 12:47 pm
But the Mississippi corridor was not, and the roads made possible the proliferation of refineries and chemical plants, while the public education provided a competent work force. As for flood control, Mr. Long was responsible for the building of more levees than any previous governor. Whether or not that were a good thing depends upon whether one considers the "idea" of New Orleans to be a good thing.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 12:55 pm
The original sections of New Orleans, which are on relatively higher ground, fared fairly well in the floods. It is the newer northern regions of the city that were worst hit.

I don't want to quibble about the merits and defects of Huey Long. It is true, he was not utterly corrupt, deceitful, and incompetent. However, compared to the prevailing standards in the country, he had all of these qualities.

Picaresque figures such as he are more readily remembered than the largely unknown figures who built the infrastructure of cities such as Chicago, New York, and even Salt Lake City. Their colorful vices merely make their few virtues appear more interesting.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:00 pm
And of course, it is useful to drag in anyone, any topic, which deflects discussion of the pathetic incompetence of the current administration. I suspect that someone in the Secret Service is detailed to tell the Shrub where his ass is if he needs to know, because all the evidence suggests that he couldn't personally find it with both hands and a wall chart.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:03 pm
deleted
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:06 pm
BBB
duplicate post deleted
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:06 pm
Osso
ossobuco wrote:
On the side of demo'g fema with intent, here is a link to an email I got this morning that lays out a timeline -
http://www.ocnus.net/artman/publish/article_20057.shtml

The author has a point of view that some would regard as bias; still, it's quite a timeline.


Osso, did you notice the 1/9/05 date of the report in the link you posted? The author predicted on 1/9/05 what would happen in August 2005.

BBB
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:16 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
George, I seriously would like to know, why the USA now asked for more than the 15 submersible 15,000 ltr/min water pumps we already sent today, when the USA had so many own and even better ones.


I have no idea. 4000 gallon/min. portable, submersible pumps are large, compared only to other such portable pumps. However most city fire departments have large numbers of 500 gal/min and 1000 gal/min portable pumps readily available, and I'm sure many cities have much larger ones. On just my carrier we had at least a hundred such portable pumps. If Germany had a number of 4000 gal/min portable pumps readily available, ready for transport, and offered them to assist us, we would be very foolish to decline them - and the good will they represent.

One could ask why the City of New Orleans didn't have a number of these pumps in ready reserve.

Please don't conclude that I was scornful of the very practical, timely, and useful offer that the German government made. Quite the contrary is true. I was reacting only to the implication that such pumps are found only in Germany.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:32 pm
Walter,

I am always proud of Germany. But when are they going to drop the word "christian" from the names of their political parties?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:38 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
I was reacting only to the implication that such pumps are found only in Germany.


That's what was said, and that's why these 90 specialists (all volunteers) are engaged every year all over the world - at least, if I believe them.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:41 pm
Setanta wrote:
And of course, it is useful to drag in anyone, any topic, which deflects discussion of the pathetic incompetence of the current administration. I suspect that someone in the Secret Service is detailed to tell the Shrub where his ass is if he needs to know, because all the evidence suggests that he couldn't personally find it with both hands and a wall chart.


But my contention - clearly expressed - is that the historical pattern of local government in Louisiana is indeed relevent to the matter at hand. Moreover I believe that the facts already available support this. With respect to the floods, prevention, not mitigation was and is the principal responsibility of government and in particular of the local government.

What you have given us about Bush is just opinion, unsupported by anything other than your own prejudiuces.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:44 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Walter,

I am always proud of Germany. But when are they going to drop the word "christian" from the names of their political parties?


The parties were founded by Catholics and Evangelicals (Protestants) who opposed communism and Nazism.
They still consider Christian belief as one of the party aims.

Seems to be a better label then called themselves 'Conservatives' :wink:
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:51 pm
Given the literally billions of dollars poured into the Mississippi River projects since the 1830's, i find it more than a little naïve to attempt to paint this as a failure of local government, all the while attempting to exculpate the Federal government. I contend that your pointed ommission of the part played by the Corps, the responsibility of government in their projects, leads you to make charges against local administration which are opinions unsupported by anything other than your own prejudices.

I do greatly enjoy slamming the Shrub, both because he's such a loser, and because of the as yet untolled damage he has wrought on the nation i love. If it offends you, all the better.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 01:57 pm
Quote:
[...]
The 2004 hurricane season was the worst in decades. In spite of that, the federal government came back this spring with the steepest reduction in hurricane- and flood-control funding for New Orleans in history. Because of the proposed cuts, the Corps office there imposed a hiring freeze. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project -- $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million -- was not enough to start any new jobs. According to New Orleans CityBusiness this June 5:


The district has identified $35 million in projects to build and improve levees, floodwalls and pumping stations in St. Bernard, Orleans, Jefferson and St. Charles parishes. Those projects are included in a Corps line item called Lake Pontchartrain, where funding is scheduled to be cut from $5.7 million this year to $2.9 million in 2006. Naomi said it's enough to pay salaries but little else.


"We'll do some design work. We'll design the contracts and get them ready to go if we get the money. But we don't have the money to put the work in the field, and that's the problem," Naomi said.

There was, at the same time, a growing recognition that more research was needed to see what New Orleans must do to protect itself from a Category 4 or 5 hurricane. But once again, the money was not there. As the Times-Picayune reported last Sept. 22:


That second study would take about four years to complete and would cost about $4 million, said Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi. About $300,000 in federal money was proposed for the 2005 fiscal-year budget, and the state had agreed to match that amount.


But the cost of the Iraq war forced the Bush administration to order the New Orleans district office not to begin any new studies, and the 2005 budget no longer includes the needed money, he said.
[...]
Source
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:00 pm
In another thread, i also found evidence, one source being the House of Representatives, and the other source the Corps of Engineers itself, that funding for Corps water management projects was reduced by 14% in the 2002 budget and by 10% in the 2003 budget. This has been set up well in advance. I don't contend that it was intentionally set up, but the effect is the same.
0 Replies
 
Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:02 pm
After the waltz was over....marking
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:06 pm
Thank you, Miss Letty, trust you to recognize the reference . . .

After the waltz was over
After the music ends
After the dance was over
After the break of day . . .
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:13 pm
Laughing

We both got it wrong, Set:



After the ball is over,
After the break of morn -
After the dancers' leaving;
After the stars are gone;
Many a heart is aching,
If you could read them all;
Many the hopes that have vanished
After the ball.

As for Katrina and politics, I agree with Acquiunk. FEMA was very, VERY bad after Frances.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:15 pm
My grandmother used to sing that song as she worked around the house . . . i hated it when Mel Torme butchered to make a pop tune.

FEMA has been gutted, and turned into a lickspittle of "Homeland/Thousand Year Reich Security."
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:15 pm
Setanta wrote:
Given the literally billions of dollars poured into the Mississippi River projects since the 1830's, i find it more than a little naïve to attempt to paint this as a failure of local government, all the while attempting to exculpate the Federal government. I contend that your pointed ommission of the part played by the Corps, the responsibility of government in their projects, leads you to make charges against local administration which are opinions unsupported by anything other than your own prejudices.

I do greatly enjoy slamming the Shrub, both because he's such a loser, and because of the as yet untolled damage he has wrought on the nation i love. If it offends you, all the better.


I don't dispute the effect that the several decades old Mississippi River control projects have played a part in all of this. Indeed I devoted a long post to this aspect of the matter on another thread. However it is noteworthy that the levees that failed were not those on the river, but rather those on the lake. Hard to blame that and the unpreparedness of the city that zoned the property adjacent to that lake for residential development on the Corps of Engineers.

In the cases of both the Mississippi River and the Everglades in Florida we are confronted with the unanticipated side effects of Corps of Engineers programs to improve waterways from the perspectives of economic development and commercial navigation. The main adverse consequence in the Mississippi is the decline of silt deposits in the delta and a reduced ability of the river to absorb heavy runoff by local flooding, instead of running it all downriver. However my understanding is that this did not contribute to the problem at hand in new Orleans. Instead it was the local rainfall which drains into the lake, and the inadequate design of the lake levees that precipitated the problem. The Corps of Engineers may well have designed and constructed the lake levees, but this was not an essential part of the river program.

I know you don't like "the Shrub" and I do even enjoy your diatribes against him. However I believe the very good question you posed in thius thread merits a more serious response than that. I have tried to give one.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 02:19 pm
One hundred seventy plus years is a lot more than is implied in "decades long." The Corps is responsible for the water control projects of the Mississippi basin, which includes Lake Pontchartrain.
0 Replies
 
 

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