Is there some "blame" that should accrue?????

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If someone else has asked this question already...I apologize for the repeat...but...

...since "the faithful" were so anxious to thank their gods for sparing them the full brunt of Katrina's fury the day after the hurricane plowed through the south...on that day after when it seemed the "big one" had been averted...

...why is it that they are not "blaming" their gods for what actually happened?

Here are some excerpts from a new story on AOL:

BILOXI, Miss. (Sept. 5) - They came to where their church once stood, carrying lawn chairs and blankets to sit on. On the Sunday after Hurricane Katrina, members of the Episcopal Church of the Redeemer stopped sifting through rubble long enough to thank God and express their faith each other that they can get through the aftermath and rebuild.

Back at the Church of the Redeemer, Roberts said that while Sunday was the saddest day of his life, it was also the happiest because of the resilience of his flock.
"God is with us, God will bring us through this," Roberts said. "This church has been through this before and we will rise again."
9/5/2005 06:00:52

Full article at:
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050905063109990007

Where is the consistency?

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The faithful and/or those who believe in God know that blame is an exercise in futility, senselessness and frustration. It will net me nothing except more frustration, a great deal of anxiety and pain. Speaking for myself, I know that whatever happens there is a reason for it. I do not need to know the reason my responsibility is to find a way to accept it as part of God's plan. Does this mean I am always happy with God's plan? No; but, I am aware that there is a reason and that the event which takes place is meant to make me think on many levels.

If one lives through a horrible tragedy then they can indeed be grateful and thank God for being allowed to continue on in life. For myself it is a matter of having something painful and difficult happen in my life and then managing the balancing out of what I still have as opposed to what I have lost. When I was in an accident and was unable to walk for several months I could still be thankful for my life. When a fire took my home and the life of a neighbor I was thankful for my life being spared, although at the same time I was very sad for the loss of my residence and the life of a good friend. At the time of the death of a brother, I found I could still give thanks for having had him in my life even for a shorter time than I may have wanted. It is not what I want, it is about what God wants and needs in order to fulfill the master plan.

In the case of the storm survivors they are able to realize that they have been allowed life and will have the ability to move forward in the difficult aftermath and, yes, rebuild. It will perhaps be different from before, but this experience can be used as a part of spiritual growth.

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bookmark

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Thanks for trying to answer the question, Sturgis. It is not an easy one.

Thanks for checking out the thread Husker.

Sturgis...if I may...

...fact is that you good folks who "believe" there is a god often "thank" that god for the things that happen that you perceive to be "good."

"Being spared" in your example is such a moment.

And...since you seem to suggest by doing so that your god was in some way "responsible" for the "good thing"...so much so that "thanks" were due....

...you've not only commited to the notion of "responsibility"...but to the notion of assigning value to those kinds of things.

We can certainly agree that you have no problem seeing the "good things that happen" as being something your god ought to be "thanked" for.

You folks do that all the time.

My question goes to why you do not take that notion to its logical extension...

...by "blaming" your god (or redressing your god) for the things you perceive to be "bad."

"There must be some hidden purpose" really is nothing more than a cop-out....a rationalization, and not an especially good one.

A god was being thanked profusely for sparing New Orleans when it seemed it had been spared. Why, when it turned out New Orleans had not been spared...was that god not given a well-deserved dressing down for its "responsibility" in such a disaster?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Thanks for trying to answer the question, Sturgis. It is not an easy one.

Thanks for checking out the thread Husker.

Sturgis...if I may...

My question goes to why you do not take that notion to its logical extension...

...by "blaming" your god (or redressing your god) for the things you perceive to be "bad."

"There must be some hidden purpose" really is nothing more than a cop-out....a rationalization, and not an especially good one.

A god was being thanked profusely for sparing New Orleans when it seemed it had been spared. Why, when it turned out New Orleans had not been spared...was that god not given a well-deserved dressing down for its "responsibility" in such a disaster?

Well FrankApisa, this is very hard for me to put into words. For me it is just an inner feeling and a certainty that there is a purpose. I understand that for many this is merely a copout and that this sort of logic could also be sent into other areas. For example if Joe kills Anthony then couldn't it be attributed to God's plan? As I have indicated in the past, when it comes to good and bad (intentional bad or good for the sole purpose of looking good) there are a lot of twists and turns so nothing is cut and dry. I would have to know exactly why Joe killed Anthony. I am veering off topic here, so let me return to your question.

Whereas I do not blame God for the times in which my life has been difficult, neither do I jump up and down in delirious happiness. There have been times when I have even gotten to extreme outrage and screamed and cursed like a deranged person at how unfair God has been. A few hours pass and my sanity is somewhat restored, I apologize for the excessive outburst and then ask "WHY? Why did such and such have to happen?" The answer for me is always the same. It happened for a reason. Perhaps to force a person to shed tears. Maybe to move a community to unification. I do not know the reasons, and odds are that within my time in my Earthly existence I never will know the answers. Faith and belief are hard to explain. As indicated in the past (somewhere, either here on this board or in another venue); how can one explain an inner feeling which is truly an intrinsic part of life and not only extrinsic? How can I compare something which is attached to my being from within instead of solely being created from the external factors of life? I have no answer for that, although I wish I did because then maybe I could better convey it to you.

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I daresay a lot of Christian folks are blaming God, even giving him a "dressing down", but eventually will come to terms with the tragedy and God's role in it. Challenging God is not unheard of in the Bible (Job did it, Moses did it, heck even Jesus did it).

You may call this "rationalization" but to a Christian, it's another matter of faith. Sturgis has explained it well.

Of course, there's several threads on a Christian's faith so no need to rehash that here.

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I think that it all comes down to the relationship that many people have with their God. It is very similar to that of a small child and a parent. The parent is all powerful, and the child is beholden to him or her for whatever happens in their lives. It is an extremely impotent stance.

Therefore, no matter what happens, for good or for ill, many religious people attribute the happening to their God. If it is a positive event, people give thanks. If it is a negative, they also give thanks that it was not worse. Sometimes, like an angry child, upset at the parent, they will rail against the God.

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Sturgis wrote:

It is not what I want, it is about what God wants and needs in order to fulfill the master plan.

I find this kind of thought very worrying. If it said 'the Party' rather than 'God', well... I shudder.

But seriously, if any act of God can be considered part of a master plan beyond our understanding, how can we know that God is good?

If you can say - 'all this suffering may seem bad, but really its good in a way we just don't understand', then I can say 'all the love and compassion in the world may seem good, but really it's bad in way we just don't understand', so no attribute of the world can be used as evidence for the goodness or badness of God. So why would you think he is good?

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Pat Robertson

took the credit for

Quote:

[using] the power of prayer to steer hurricanes away from his companies' Virginia Beach, Virginia headquarters. He took credit for steering the course in 1985 of Hurricane Gloria, which caused millions of dollars of destruction in many states along the east coast. He made a similar claim about another destructive storm, Hurricane Felix, in 1995. In 2003, Robertson called on God to prevent Hurricane Isabel from hitting Virginia Beach.

Send him an email. Perhaps you could sent this 'God'-thing an email too....

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

A god was being thanked profusely for sparing New Orleans when it seemed it had been spared. Why, when it turned out New Orleans had not been spared...was that god not given a well-deserved dressing down for its "responsibility" in such a disaster?

The fact that New Orleans was not spared means that someplace else was. Warning had been given to everyone in New Orleans that the storm was coming and that they should get out. Some chose not to heed this warning and stay. Others had no way or means to leave and their plight was not covered by the politicians.

The levees that broke were man made and therefore, this was not a 'natural' disaster as the city would not have flooded if it had not been built in an area known to be below sea level and was protected by this man made barrier. God had no hand in that.

This reminds me of the man that was on the roof of a house in a flood and when the rescuers came in a boat he said. "God will save me.". A while later a helicopter came and again he said, "God will save me." Later, he drowned. When he saw God he said, "I was a faithful servant, why didn't you save me?" God replied, "I sent a boat; I sent a helicopter.....

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

We don't know how bad it could have been and the fact that this is a wakeup call may save more in the future.

As for Pat Robertson....he is an idiot.

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Intrepid wrote:

We don't know how bad it could have been and the fact that this is a wakeup call may save more in the future.

So, let me get this straight, are you saying that God sent a hurricane as a wake call so we'd get better defenses set up in case, er... he sent a bigger hurricane...?

Could he just not send hurricanes? Or is he powerless to stop them? Or does he stop the really bad ones, but is going to be a way for a while, so wants to make sure we're prepared for worse?

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Intrepid wrote:

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

Yes, Intrepid...I realize that.

In fact, that is the reason for my question.

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

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djbt wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
We don't know how bad it could have been and the fact that this is a wakeup call may save more in the future.

So, let me get this straight, are you saying that God sent a hurricane as a wake call so we'd get better defenses set up in case, er... he sent a bigger hurricane...?

Could he just not send hurricanes? Or is he powerless to stop them? Or does he stop the really bad ones, but is going to be a way for a while, so wants to make sure we're prepared for worse?

No, I am not saying that God SENT a hurricane at all. The wake up call should be from what was experienced. It is possible that a bigger hurricane could occur and people should be ready.

Your science should tell you that we will have weather disturbances based on temperatures, currents etc. etc.

God did give us our own free will and our intellect should help to govern how we use it. That is what I am saying.

You

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

Yes, Intrepid...I realize that.

In fact, that is the reason for my question.

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Frank,

I thought I answered that in the first 3 paragraphs.

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

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Frank Apisa wrote:

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

Again FrankApisa it comes down to an inner belief that God is keeping things in motion for a particular reason. Blaming isn't going to make it all better, and realizing that, I find first there is no sense in blaming and secondly I should find something good within my life and express gratitude for that.

As for bad things, okay let's take a look at them. A hurricane wipes out a community and destroys homes, lives and trees etc. A family is forced to relocate. In their new community the educational standards are higher. There are more programs which help deal with children in need and families in need. In the old community work was scarce, now there are so many jobs it is almost obscene.

The family thrives and send their children to college. Their eldest son is a plumber, the next one is a major league baseball player, their daughter is a research scientist who develops a cure for pancreatic cancer. The second to youngest son is an advertising executive who creates adds which amuse and entertain while being informative and the youngest is a lawyer who goes on to be a judge who ends up as a Senator where he becomes part of ground breaking group of individuals who draft legislation which ends hunger and poverty in the United States and 140 other nations as well. All this happened because of one storm. yes, this is a piece of fiction, but the idea is meant to show that even bad can be turned to good. It is all a matter of how I take it and work with it.

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Sturgis wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"
Again FrankApisa it comes down to an inner belief that God is keeping things in motion for a particular reason. Blaming isn't going to make it all better, and realizing that, I find first there is no sense in blaming....

Well...don't assume I am saying you should blame any god for the bad stuff that happens.

I am not.

Quote:

...and secondly I should find something good within my life and express gratitude for that.

Almost something I can agree with.

Almost.

Can you figure out what issues I have with this notion?

[/quote]As for bad things, okay let's take a look at them. A hurricane wipes out a community and destroys homes, lives and trees etc. A family is forced to relocate. In their new community the educational standards are higher. There are more programs which help deal with children in need and families in need. In the old community work was scarce, now there are so many jobs it is almost obscene.

The family thrives and send their children to college. Their eldest son is a plumber, the next one is a major league baseball player, their daughter is a research scientist who develops a cure for pancreatic cancer. The second to youngest son is an advertising executive who creates adds which amuse and entertain while being informative and the youngest is a lawyer who goes on to be a judge who ends up as a Senator where he becomes part of ground breaking group of individuals who draft legislation which ends hunger and poverty in the United States and 140 other nations as well. All this happened because of one storm. yes, this is a piece of fiction, but the idea is meant to show that even bad can be turned to good. It is all a matter of how I take it and work with it.[/quote]

Truly it is an excellent piece of fiction.

But to be honest with you...it sounds more like a rationalization so that one does not have to "blame" the bad stuff on a god.

Why do you think that is necessary...when you folks really seem reluctant to rationalize the good stuff so that thanking a god becomes absurd?

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

Yes, Intrepid...I realize that.

In fact, that is the reason for my question.

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Frank,

I thought I answered that in the first 3 paragraphs.

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

I understand why you are ducking my question, Intrepid. It is probably the most intelligent way to handle something like this...because any rationalizations you come up with will probably sound as silly to your subconscious as it would to us.

If you were in your position...I'd try my best to duck it also.

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If people actually went through the trouble of thanking their gods for having spared New Orleans...when it appeared as though the city had been spared...

...why are they not taking their gods to task for this horrendous disaster?

(HINT: You folks are all too afraid of your god to give it any lip...no matter how justified it might be.)

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

Yes, Intrepid...I realize that.

In fact, that is the reason for my question.

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Frank,

I thought I answered that in the first 3 paragraphs.

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

I understand why you are ducking my question, Intrepid. It is probably the most intelligent way to handle something like this...because any rationalizations you come up with will probably sound as silly to your subconscious as it would to us.

If you were in your position...I'd try my best to duck it also.

I didn't duck your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Oh, you kinda messed up the quoting thing so that it appears that I said some of what you actually said. Surprised

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Frank Apisa wrote:

If people actually went through the trouble of thanking their gods for having spared New Orleans...when it appeared as though the city had been spared...

...why are they not taking their gods to task for this horrendous disaster?

(HINT: You folks are all too afraid of your god to give it any lip...no matter how justified it might be.)

Frank,

It has nothing to do with fear. It has everything to do with faith. Those that do not share this faith cannot understand what it is and how it works.

It seems that you just cannot accept that people would have a faith that is beyone what your comprehension can fathom.

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Is there some "blame" that should accrue?????

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