Is there some "blame" that should accrue?????

Frank - I don't think Intrepid is ducking the question. I think it is more you lack of fully understanding faith. Yes, you may know the definition, but unless you have a strong sense of faith you cannot fully understand it. It is difficult to explain unless you experience it. How would you describe pain to some one who has not experienced it? You could describe it, but the person would never fully appreciate it without having first hand experience of it.

Some one who has strong faith is not afraid of God. There is no danger in speaking out against Him. You can question God and His ways and like some one wrote before, many very faithful individuals did just that.

Ooops looks like Intrepid beat me to it - in trying to describe faith.

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Intrepid wrote:

The tragedy in New Orleans was very real and heartbreaking. I am not saying it was the fault of the people, I am only pointing out that God can be thanked for the good and should not be condemned for the bad.

Yes, Intrepid...I realize that.

In fact, that is the reason for my question.

So I will ask it again...rewording it using some of your phrasing:

Why, since you people thank your god for the good stuff that happens...do you not condemn that god for the bad?

Frank,

I thought I answered that in the first 3 paragraphs.

Why do you say that your god "...should not be condemned for the bad?"

I understand why you are ducking my question, Intrepid. It is probably the most intelligent way to handle something like this...because any rationalizations you come up with will probably sound as silly to your subconscious as it would to us.

If you were in your position...I'd try my best to duck it also.

I didn't duck your question. You just didn't like the answer.

Oh, you kinda messed up the quoting thing so that it appears that I said some of what you actually said.

Actually, Intrepid...you did duck my question....and you messed up the quoting thing.

Take a look at your post 1553832 - .

It looked to me as though you simply re-posted my post...and offered no comment.

Actually...you did offer a comment...but it was hidden.

In any case...you guys are all on this "you gotta understand faith" nonsense.

And it is pure nonsense.

Whatever perceived problems I have with what you people call "faith" is not an answer to my question.

You can have all the "faith" in the world...but my question deals with...

...If you assign responsibility for the the good stuff to your god...and that the god for it....why do you not assign responsibility for the bad stuff....and give your god some lip for that?

(MY HINT AGAIN: You people are terrified of your god...and with good reason. The god is without a doubt one of the most vicious, murderous, quick-to-anger, slow-to-forgive, petty, barbaric monsters ever dreamed up by humans.)

So...let's try it again:

If you assign responsibility for the good stuff that happens to your god...and profusely thank your god for it....why do you not assign responsibility for the bad stuff to the god and let the god know what you think about such crap?

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Intrepid wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
If people actually went through the trouble of thanking their gods for having spared New Orleans...when it appeared as though the city had been spared...

...why are they not taking their gods to task for this horrendous disaster?

(HINT: You folks are all too afraid of your god to give it any lip...no matter how justified it might be.)

Frank,

It has nothing to do with fear. It has everything to do with faith. Those that do not share this faith cannot understand what it is and how it works.

It seems that you just cannot accept that people would have a faith that is beyone what your comprehension can fathom.

I have absolutely no problem understanding that you guys have "faith" that is beyond my comprehension to fathom....and I can't even understand why you poor deluded people cannot see your faith for the hard-headed insistence that your guesses are right....that it is.

The problem with why you do not "blame" your god for the crap, Intrepid...has nothing to do with your "faith"....except insofar as your "faith" that the god of the Bible exists causes you to live in abject terror of the monster.

Just trying to help you folks get out from under this anvil.

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Linkat wrote:

Frank - I don't think Intrepid is ducking the question. I think it is more you lack of fully understanding faith. Yes, you may know the definition, but unless you have a strong sense of faith you cannot fully understand it. It is difficult to explain unless you experience it. How would you describe pain to some one who has not experienced it? You could describe it, but the person would never fully appreciate it without having first hand experience of it.

Some one who has strong faith is not afraid of God. There is no danger in speaking out against Him. You can question God and His ways and like some one wrote before, many very faithful individuals did just that.

Ooops looks like Intrepid beat me to it - in trying to describe faith.

Thank you, Linkat

Many may not agree with you, but I do

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Intrepid wrote:

No, I am not saying that God SENT a hurricane at all.

OK, so did he have nothing to do with it? If not, why would anyone thank him for sparing them? He'd didn't spare them, they were just lucky. If he did spare them, why were there some very young children who he did not spare?

Did God have anything to do with it? Does God have anything to do with the world at all?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
If people actually went through the trouble of thanking their gods for having spared New Orleans...when it appeared as though the city had been spared...

...why are they not taking their gods to task for this horrendous disaster?

(HINT: You folks are all too afraid of your god to give it any lip...no matter how justified it might be.)

Frank,

It has nothing to do with fear. It has everything to do with faith. Those that do not share this faith cannot understand what it is and how it works.

It seems that you just cannot accept that people would have a faith that is beyone what your comprehension can fathom.

I have absolutely no problem understanding that you guys have "faith" that is beyond my comprehension to fathom....and I can't even understand why you poor deluded people cannot see your faith for the hard-headed insistence that your guesses are right....that it is.

The problem with why you do not "blame" your god for the crap, Intrepid...has nothing to do with your "faith"....except insofar as your "faith" that the god of the Bible exists causes you to live in abject terror of the monster.

Just trying to help you folks get out from under this anvil.

Frank,

I do not know how to explain it any better.

If you felt that your parents were responsible for something that was not pleasant, but they prevented you from being hurt at the same time.... Would you thank your parents for keeping you from harm and then condemn them for doing it in the way that they did? You may not understand this, but I am trying to put into some human terms that you may understand. Again, faith is not fear. It is hope and love.

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Linkat wrote:

Frank - I don't think Intrepid is ducking the question. I think it is more you lack of fully understanding faith. Yes, you may know the definition, but unless you have a strong sense of faith you cannot fully understand it. It is difficult to explain unless you experience it. How would you describe pain to some one who has not experienced it? You could describe it, but the person would never fully appreciate it without having first hand experience of it.

Some one who has strong faith is not afraid of God.

Link...the only reason gods were invented in the first place...is because poor, superstitious ancient humans were terrified of the unknown...and they invented gods so that they could propitiate them.

Every indication is that you religious folks are TERRIFIED of your god.

Test it out.

Let me hear you put into writing that you think your god was a piece of dung for allowing all the carnage to happen to New Orleans and to the people of New Orleans...when it would have been a blink of an eye for the god to prevent it.

Let me hear you speak UNAFRAID to this god you claim you do not fear.

C'mon...let's just hear it.

Quote:

There is no danger in speaking out against Him. You can question God and His ways and like some one wrote before, many very faithful individuals did just that.

Okay...let's hear you do it.

Let's hear you do it the way you would address a fellow human who had easy a very, very easy way to stop some catastrophic event....but who simply decided to sit and watch and see what happens.

Make it very passionate.

We'd like to see it.

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Intrepid wrote:

[Frank,

I do not know how to explain it any better.

If you felt that your parents were responsible for something that was not pleasant, but they prevented you from being hurt at the same time.... Would you thank your parents for keeping you from harm and then condemn them for doing it in the way that they did? You may not understand this, but I am trying to put into some human terms that you may understand. Again, faith is not fear. It is hope and love.

I can tell you one thing, Intrepid.

If one of my parents were in a position to easily stop some horrible, catasrophic event from happening...but decided to sit back and not do anything....and just watch the tragedy unfold...

...I would tell them in no uncertain terms just what I thought of their disgusting, heartless, selfish, barbaric attitude.

They would not have any trouble understanding just how disgusting I thought they were for having done nothing to prevent what they could easily have prevented.

Since you are not afraid of your god...

..why not take that challenge I offered Link up above.

C'mon. Show us that you are not afraid of that god.

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Your definition of what is good, could be different for all sorts of people and for God. Good is subjective. Some one with strong faith finds good in everything and realizes or believes (as would be more fitting with the definition of faith) is that in the short-term what seems "bad" to you at the time, will be ultimately good.

I don't necessarily assign responsibility to God for the good or bad stuff. I am thankful for my life and the life of my family. I am thankful for all the good things I have. Some are a result of God (life for example), some probably have little directly to do with Him. You think too much in black and white - nothing is black and white as you say. If it was there would be no controversy.

Again - I am not terrified of God. I do not believe He is anything you state. I believe He is love. I don't even understand how you equate those hateful things with God. But then again, my belief could be different from what you think so how would you even know.

I also don't understand how you say having faith equates to hard-headedness. Not trying to understand faith and believing vehemently against God is just as hard-headed as those that never question God or the Bible. You can have strong faith in God and still be open minded to other thoughts and viewpoints. I, in my faith, never think that I am 100% right. The Bible itself is an interpretation of words and language, and right there even if you believe in the Bible 100% leads to questioning.

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Linkat wrote:

Your definition of what is good, could be different for all sorts of people and for God. Good is subjective. Some one with strong faith finds good in everything and realizes or believes (as would be more fitting with the definition of faith) is that in the short-term what seems "bad" to you at the time, will be ultimately good.

I don't necessarily assign responsibility to God for the good or bad stuff. I am thankful for my life and the life of my family. I am thankful for all the good things I have. Some are a result of God (life for example), some probably have little directly to do with Him. You think too much in black and white - nothing is black and white as you say. If it was there would be no controversy.

Again - I am not terrified of God. I do not believe He is anything you state. I believe He is love. I don't even understand how you equate those hateful things with God.

I don't.

When I am talking about the god of the Bible, however...(a disgusting being that I am willing to guess is not God if there is a God)...I have a fairly clear track record to use.

The god described in the Bible is one of the most reprehensible gods ever invented by the human mind. The god is possessed of almost every disgusting trait a really evil human would possess. The god is jealous; vindictive; vengeful; quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive; tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric...you name it, the god displays it.

So I have no problem assigning any of that stuff to the god of the Bible...and if you cannot see what a pathetic, cartoon god that god is...well...let's talk about it. I can pretty much document every accusation I throw in its direction.

Quote:

But then again, my belief could be different from what you think so how would you even know.

I promise I will use whichever Bible you want me to use to prove my points.

Quote:

I also don't understand how you say having faith equates to hard-headedness.

Easy!

You have a "belief"....and you insist that the "belief" is correct. But the "belief" is almost pure guess.

So by insisting that your guess is correct...you are being hard-headed.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

Quote:

Not trying to understand faith and believing vehemently against God is just as hard-headed as those that never question God or the Bible.

Absolutely. And I have argued that way on many occasions.

But none of that applies to me.

Quote:

You can have strong faith in God and still be open minded to other thoughts and viewpoints. I, in my faith, never think that I am 100% right. The Bible itself is an interpretation of words and language, and right there even if you believe in the Bible 100% leads to questioning.

Not sure of your point here....but I am not arguing otherwise.

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Frank - did you even read what I wrote? I stated that I was open to other interpretations and thoughts of the Bible. How is that hard headed? I never once insisted that my belief is correct. I feel it is correct, but I am open to listening to over viewpoints, realizing there are many thoughts on the subject.

What is so difficult to understand about that?

The point you are not sure of is that the Bible quite simply is an interpretation of what was originally written. There are many facets to this. One, it was written my men, who could have misinterpreted God's meaning as men are fallible. Two, it is translated from the original language. Many of the original words have different meanings depending on how they are used in context. In other words, one word could mean several things. Also, just the nature in the way it is written can be interpreted differently. Read a poem or look at a picture - different people get different meanings from the exact same thing.

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Who tried to re-route the Mississippi River, who fooled around and built houses on natural wetlands.

Instead of giving credit to a super natural God I think some civil engineers and geologists who allowed and facilitated building where there should be none should be blames. Oh yah and maybe some developers and casino operators they might share some of the blame.

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Joanne - your note reminds me of a comment I heard some one state. It is simply the Mississippi River reclaiming her territory.

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Linkat wrote:

Frank - did you even read what I wrote?

Yes I did.

Quote:

I stated that I was open to other interpretations and thoughts of the Bible. How is that hard headed?

I didn't say that was hard headed.

Did you read what I wrote?

Quote:

I never once insisted that my belief is correct. I feel it is correct, but I am open to listening to over viewpoints, realizing there are many thoughts on the subject.

I have not said that you insisted your beliefs are correct...and I am open to listening to other viewpoints.

Quote:

What is so difficult to understand about that?

Nothing. Why are you supposing I am not understanding that?

Quote:

The point you are not sure of is that the Bible quite simply is an interpretation of what was originally written. There are many facets to this. One, it was written my men, who could have misinterpreted God's meaning as men are fallible. Two, it is translated from the original language. Many of the original words have different meanings depending on how they are used in context. In other words, one word could mean several things. Also, just the nature in the way it is written can be interpreted differently. Read a poem or look at a picture - different people get different meanings from the exact same thing.

What is your point here?

I am saying that I can use the Bible to document every comment I have made about the god of the Bible. You are the one saying you could not understand how I could say the things I was saying about the god of the Bible.

We are using the same language here, aren't we?

And...I am still waiting for any of you folks to show me that you are not afraid of your god.

When is that going to happen?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

..the only reason gods were invented in the first place...is because poor, superstitious ancient humans were terrified of the unknown...and they invented gods so that they could propitiate them.

Every indication is that you religious folks are TERRIFIED of your god.

Interesting this is. Let me ask you, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was poor superstitious people who invented God? Were you there?

The notion of all people who believe in God being terrified of God is rather off, especially when you consider that many of these fine people knew the hurricane was on its way but chose not to leave. (I am talking about those who chose not to leave not those who had no choice due to infirmity or poverty). If people who believe in God are truly that terrified wouldn't the expected reaction be to flee to higher ground? Clearly fear is not what is going on here.

You seem interested in learning about faith Frank but you seem afraid of it. Why? Additionally, why are you so upset when people do not answer within your predefined parameters?

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I stated and said I AM NOT AFRAID OF GOD. Have you ever attended a church where people are singing with love in their hearts? With their arms wide open welcoming God? They are happy smiling - no one is afraid. They call the children up to speak about God - they run up happy, excited not the least bit fearful.

My daughter last night, scared (normal for any little girl) as she dreams of monster (not because of Bible stories, but cartoons, other books, etc). Talks to God to help calm her, she is not afraid of Him. He makes her feel better less afraid.

Please Frank - besides the stories you read in the Bible, and perhaps besides the experiences I used to have in the Catholic Church, prove to me that I am afraid of God.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linkat wrote:
Your definition of what is good, could be different for all sorts of people and for God. Good is subjective. Some one with strong faith finds good in everything and realizes or believes (as would be more fitting with the definition of faith) is that in the short-term what seems "bad" to you at the time, will be ultimately good.

I don't necessarily assign responsibility to God for the good or bad stuff. I am thankful for my life and the life of my family. I am thankful for all the good things I have. Some are a result of God (life for example), some probably have little directly to do with Him. You think too much in black and white - nothing is black and white as you say. If it was there would be no controversy.

Again - I am not terrified of God. I do not believe He is anything you state. I believe He is love. I don't even understand how you equate those hateful things with God.

Quote:

I don't.

When I am talking about the god of the Bible, however...(a disgusting being that I am willing to guess is not God if there is a God)...I have a fairly clear track record to use.

The god described in the Bible is one of the most reprehensible gods ever invented by the human mind. The god is possessed of almost every disgusting trait a really evil human would possess. The god is jealous; vindictive; vengeful; quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive; tyrannical, petty, murderous, barbaric...you name it, the god displays it.

Some could say the same thing about Frank Apisa. Does that mean that we should indulge all of our waking hours trying to convince others of this? Does it mean that we should stand in judgement of him? Does it mean that he is right? Does it mean that we are right? We we try to force our beliefs on others? Do we create thread after thread to bait people into responding so that we can jump on them and try to cut them to pieces? Frankly. (no pun intended) I am getting tired of even responding so that every word can be either taken out of context or laughed at.

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Sturgis wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

..the only reason gods were invented in the first place...is because poor, superstitious ancient humans were terrified of the unknown...and they invented gods so that they could propitiate them.

Every indication is that you religious folks are TERRIFIED of your god.

Interesting this is. Let me ask you, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was poor superstitious people who invented God? Were you there?

Ooops, NO BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

I guess I should have included words similar to the ones I included in the sentence following..."it appears" or "indications are."

Almost all of the early religions...and most of the primative religions...had to do with propitiating gods. Begging them for crops and reasonable weather.

Virgins were thrown into volcanoes...and human sacrifice made....all to propitiate demon gods.

But I certainly do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But...since you brought this notion into this thread....how about you theists in this thread telling us if you know there is a GOD BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

Quote:

The notion of all people who believe in God being terrified of God is rather off, especially when you consider that many of these fine people knew the hurricane was on its way but chose not to leave. (I am talking about those who chose not to leave not those who had no choice due to infirmity or poverty). If people who believe in God are truly that terrified wouldn't the expected reaction be to flee to higher ground? Clearly fear is not what is going on here.

Gimme a break, Sturgis.

People could be terrified of their god...and still decide to deal with a hurricane.

What is your point here?

Quote:

You seem interested in learning about faith Frank but you seem afraid of it.

Afraid of being hard headed?????

Not me!!!

Ask anyone.

Quote:

Why? Additionally, why are you so upset when people do not answer within your predefined parameters?

I am not. I simply want an answer that will pass the stink test....and I call responses that don't to their attention.

Don't you do that?

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Linkat wrote:

I stated and said I AM NOT AFRAID OF GOD. Have you ever attended a church where people are singing with love in their hearts? With their arms wide open welcoming God? They are happy smiling - no one is afraid. They call the children up to speak about God - they run up happy, excited not the least bit fearful.

You are terrified. So terrified you dare not even recognize that you are.

Quote:

My daughter last night, scared (normal for any little girl) as she dreams of monster (not because of Bible stories, but cartoons, other books, etc). Talks to God to help calm her, she is not afraid of Him. He makes her feel better less afraid.

You are teaching her to be afraid...but that is for another thread.

Quote:

Please Frank - besides the stories you read in the Bible, and perhaps besides the experiences I used to have in the Catholic Church, prove to me that I am afraid of God.

Prove it to yourself, Link.

Here...lemme help.

In Exodus...your god wanted to free his chosen people from captivity in Egypt. He sent Moses in....telling Moses that although he (Moses) would work many wonders for Pharaoh, the god would "harden Pharaoh's heart and make him obstinate"....so that Pharaoh would not release the Hebrews. That, of course, would make more and more "wonders" (which were nothing more than torturing the common people of Egypt)...each getting worse and more tormenting. And then...in a final frenzy of brutality and murder...the god slaughtered all the first born of Egypt.

This is the same god who had just pages before had made our planet, our sun, the 250 billion suns in our galaxy, and the hundreds upon hundreds of galaxies that we know of....and spread them out in space the god made so vast...galaxies can pass through other galaxies without any stars ever colliding.

The god could have accomplished its end in any number of ways...but chose this disgusting slaughter of innocents and others.

Now...show me that you are not afraid of your god.

Tell your god right here that you think the slaughter of the Egyptian first borns was a totally unnecessary...incredibly barbaric act.

Tell us.

Show us that you are not afraid.

Or....accept the proof you asked for.

Your choice.

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Here is another thing you "not afraid" people might want to pay a bit of attention to:

The first of some three hundred "commandments" from your god.

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

C'mon folks...tell your god what you think about a god who would inflict punishments of sons and grandsons for the wickedness of their fathers.

Show us that you are not afraid of your god.

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Is there some "blame" that should accrue?????

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