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Presidential Election 2024

 
 
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2024 04:35 pm
Thought I would start an election thread since most of the election stuff is buried in other places. Starting off with this from 538.com
Quote:
A fresh batch of close polls released Oct. 10 has Democrats worried and sent Vice President Kamala Harris’s odds of victory sliding to their lowest point yet in prediction markets for the Electoral College. Those polls — most notably from Emerson College, Marist College and The New York Times, three of the most prolific pollsters in America — show Harris and former President Donald Trump tied in the northern battlegrounds and Harris trailing heavily in Florida. But our forecast came to a different conclusion: Currently, our model gives Harris a 53 out of 100 chance of winning the majority of Electoral College votes, up from the brink of 50-50 on the evening of Oct. 9.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 10 • Views: 559 • Replies: 22

 
cherrie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2024 06:17 pm
@engineer,
I have to admit that I am utterly confused by the Electoral College aspect of your elections. I have googled it but still don't get it.

Unless I'm completely missing the point or reading it wrong, it seems that the Electoral College has the final say in who the President will be, no matter who the voters have elected.

If this is how it works then what is the point of having elections?

Like I said, maybe I've misunderstood how it works, so can someone please explain this in a really simple way.
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2024 08:27 pm
@cherrie,
I would be happy to explain it - if I could.
cherrie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Oct, 2024 11:08 pm
@roger,
Thanks roger, it's the thought that counts.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Oct, 2024 06:46 am
@cherrie,
In 1785 William Pitt the younger introduced a bill to reform the elections by removing some rotten boroughs.

It was defeated, and it wasn't until 1832 that a reform act was passed.

The arguments in the UK then are the same as those in America today, if you change a system that has worked 'well' up until now you don't know the consequences, there could be anarchy etc.

From what I understand the electoral college was all about ensuring the smaller states were not dominated by the larger ones.

However, it now seems to ensure a Conservative bias. The Democrat candidate has won every popular vote since Reagan with the exception of Dubya's second term.

That's why the Republicans want to keep it.
Region Philbis
 
  2  
Reply Sun 13 Oct, 2024 09:57 am
in 2008, Robert Gentel wrote:
Flunking the Electoral College
Quote:
There is no reason to feel sentimental about the Electoral College. One of the main reasons the founders created it was slavery. The southern states liked the fact that their slaves, who would be excluded from a direct vote, would be counted " as three-fifths of a white person " when Electoral College votes were apportioned.

The founders also were concerned, in the day of the wooden printing press, that voters would not have enough information to choose among presidential candidates. It was believed that it would be easier for them to vote for local officials, whom they knew more about, to be electors. It is hard to imagine that significant numbers of voters thought they did not know enough about Barack Obama and John McCain by Election Day this year.

And, while these reasons for the Electoral College have lost all relevance, its disadvantages loom ever larger. To start, the system excludes many voters from a meaningful role in presidential elections. If you live in New York or Texas, for example, it is generally a foregone conclusion which party will win your state’s electoral votes, so your vote has less meaning " and it can feel especially meaningless if you vote on the losing side. On the other hand, if you live in Florida or Ohio, where the outcome is less clear, your vote has a greatly magnified importance.

Voters in small states are favored because Electoral College votes are based on the number of senators and representatives a state has. Wyoming’s roughly 500,000 people get three electoral votes. California, which has about 70 times Wyoming’s population, gets only 55 electoral votes.

The Electoral College also makes America seem more divided along blue-red lines than it actually is. If you look at an Electoral College map, California appears solidly blue and Alabama solidly red. But if you look at a map of the popular votes, you see a more nuanced picture. More than 4.5 million Californians voted for Mr. McCain (roughly as many votes as he got in Texas), while about 40 percent of voters in Alabama cast a ballot for Mr. Obama.

One of the biggest problems with the Electoral College, of course, is that three times since the Civil War " most recently, with George W. Bush in 2000 " it has awarded the presidency to the loser of the popular vote. The president should be the candidate who wins the votes of the most Americans.
https://able2know.org/topic/125928-1

(emphasis mine)
cherrie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 04:15 am
@izzythepush,
Thanks for that. It's all starting to make a bit more sense now.
0 Replies
 
cherrie
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 04:22 am
@Region Philbis,
I read (skimmed) the thread you linked. Obviously there are mixed feelings about whether the Electoral College is a good or bad thing.

I have to agree with the statement you bolded, the President should be the candidate elected by the people. To me the idea that a handful of people can overturn the election result is just insane.
neptuneblue
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 11:21 am
@engineer,
And so it begins...

Donald Trump has chillingly suggested sending the military or National Guard after US citizens on Election Day.

The ex-president gave a sit-down interview with Maria Bartiromo, one of the Fox News hosts whose role in pushing Trump’s lies about the 2020 election landed her bosses in the crosshairs of a billion-dollar lawsuit filed by Dominion Voting Systems. It was later settled to the tune of $787m.

In the interview, which aired on Sunday, Bartiromo was back on typical form, suggesting that America was headed for possible violence on election day due to scores of immigrants supposedly being let in illegally by the Biden administration. That was a debunked conspiracy the Trump team floated in both 2016 and 2020 — that millions of votes for his opponents came from noncitizens.

But Trump took things a step further, denying Bartiromo’s suggestion that those groups would be the “real” problem on Election Day.

That honor, he said, went to the so-called “enemy within.”

“I don’t think [immigrants] are the problem in terms of election day,” Trump told Bartiromo. “I think the bigger problem are the people from within, we have some very bad people, sick people, radical left lunatics.”

At that point, he suggested a seemingly sinister solution.

“And it should be easily handled by, if necessary, by National Guard, or if really necessary, by the military,” he said.

“I think the bigger problem is the enemy from within. Not even the people who have come in, who are destroying our country.”

It isn’t clear under what circumstances Trump would view it justifiable to call in US troops against his own countrymen.

But his comments mark a baseless attack and a particularly hollow one coming from someone whose supporters violently attacked the US Capitol in an attempt to stop him from being thrown out of office three years ago.

It is perhaps unsurprising, though.

The ex-president, humiliated by his defeat in 2020, has taken to dehumanizing his opponents’ voters whenever possible. At a rally in Dayton, Ohio, in the spring he claimed that Democrats were “not people, in some cases” while onstage with Senate candidate Bernie Moreno.

Many political analysts have speculated that Trump is already laying the groundwork for efforts to contest the election results this year should be be defeated once again, by seeding conspiracies about non-citizens voting and mail-in ballots which he will possibly use in November and December to argue that the results are tainted.

But mail-in voting has not been proven to be signficantly tainted by fraud in any jurisidiction across the US.

Meanwhile, non-citizen voting is already illegal (despite Republican efforts to pass legislation against it in Congress) and does not occur due to existing state and local election systems having safeguards to prevent it. A 2016 analysis found that only 30 instances of non-citizens attempting to vote were reported in the 2016 election cycle across the whole of the US.

“Donald Trump is suggesting that his fellow Americans are worse ‘enemies’ than foreign adversaries, and he is saying he would use the military against them,” said Ian Sams, a Harris campaign spokesperson. “Taken with his vow to be a dictator on ‘day one,’ calls for the ‘termination’ of the Constitution, and plans to surround himself with sycophants who will give him unchecked, unprecedented power if he returns to office, this should alarm every American who cares about their freedom and security. What Donald Trump is promising is dangerous, and returning him to office is simply a risk Americans cannot afford.”
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Trump’s supporters violently besieged the US Capitol in January 2021, injuring dozens of police officers and forcing lawmakers as well as then-Vice President Mike Pence, who was a top target of their fury, to hide in secure locations around the Capitol complex for hours. Their aim was clear: to prevent a vote in the US Senate that would certify the election results from three months prior.

The attack failed, and Joe Biden was sworn in to office just a few weeks later. In the months and years since the riot, Republicans in Congress and around the country have attempted to misinform and misconstrue the reason and intent of the attack, as well as minimize the extent of the violence that day.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-military-national-guard-election-day-b2628522.html
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 12:39 pm
@cherrie,
Based on the polls today, Harris will almost certainly win the popular vote but the electoral college is 50/50
Mame
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 04:06 pm
@engineer,
No offence to you at all, sir, but blah blah blah. What I want to know is: Who is going to win?
Region Philbis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 04:32 pm
@Mame,

final tally should be in by x-mas...
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Oct, 2024 04:52 pm
Get out the vote. The idiots that don’t vote will help to end the democracy that we all cherish. AS Pogo once said, “we have met the enemy and he are us!”
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 02:37 am
Quote:
As the two presidential campaigns position themselves for the final sprint to the election on November 5, the difference between them is dramatic.

Trump is hunkering down behind what has always appeared to be a plan not to attract voters but instead to create chaos on Election Day. Creating confusion around the election could enable his loyalists to put in place the plan the Trump team concocted in 2020 to throw the election into the House of Representatives or get it before the Supreme Court, stacked as it is with Trump loyalists.

A central piece of that plan appears to be to rile up his supporters to violence, and a few of them have been delivering. News broke yesterday that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) had advised federal emergency workers to evacuate Rutherford County, North Carolina, which was hit hard by Hurricane Helene, because of concerns about their safety after Trump and MAGA Republicans spread the false rumor that federal agents are forcing people off their land to start lithium mining projects. The alert came after the U.S. Forest Service sent an email to federal responders saying that National Guard troops had encountered armed militia saying they were “hunting FEMA.” FEMA officials will no longer go door-to-door with disaster assistance, but instead will stay in fixed locations.

A man has been arrested and charged with threatening FEMA workers with an assault rifle. He was released on a $10,000 bond.

To the extent Trump or his running mate Ohio senator J.D. Vance talks about them, their policies are promises to repair what they insist is the damage caused by President Joe Biden (although the stock market hit record highs again today), or threats that reinforce an authoritarian Christian nationalist worldview. Today, Bill Barrow of the Associated Press explored the extensive overlap of Project 2025 from the Heritage Foundation and other right-wing groups and the plans that Trump and Vance have set out.

Both promise to cut taxes for the wealthy, but Project 2025 has more detail about how. Both plan to cut off immigration and to fire federal workers, replacing them with loyalists. Both say the president can decide not to use the money Congress has appropriated (in 2019, Trump refused to disburse the money Congress had appropriated for Ukraine until Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky agreed to smear Trump’s chief Democratic rival for the presidency, Joe Biden). Both call for slashing government regulations and getting rid of diversity, equity, and inclusion programs as well as protections for LGBTQ+ individuals and programs addressing climate change.

But perhaps most revealing of both Trump’s ideology and his plan for the election was his statement to Fox News Channel host Maria Bartiromo on Sunday that he would like to use the military against what he called “the enemy from within…radical left lunatics" to guard the election. While this is a threat to use the power of the government against his political opponents if he is elected—he mentioned California representative and Senate candidate Adam Schiff by name—it also seems likely his loyalists will hear this as a call for violence at election sites.

Trump’s statement has not gone unnoticed.

Tonight, CNN’s The Lead with Jake Tapper posted a dictionary definition of the word “fascism”: “A populist political philosophy, movement…that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition.”

On the show, Tapper pressed Republican Virginia governor Glenn Youngkin to comment on Trump’s statement that as commander-in-chief, he would use the military against political opposition. When Youngkin denied that Trump had said any such thing, Tapper replied: “I’m literally reading his quotes to you.” Youngkin’s willingness to deny what was right in front of him did not exactly quell talk of fascism, since in his dystopian novel 1984 about authoritarianism, George Orwell famously wrote: “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

If Trump is hunkering down, Democratic presidential nominee Vice President Kamala Harris and her running mate Minnesota governor Tim Walz are still pushing ahead, pressing Trump on both his personal weakness and his now open embrace of fascism. Harris’s advisor Ian Sams went on the Fox News Channel today to note that it’s been a month since Trump “did a mainstream media interview, and we got to wonder why. We called this weekend for him to release his medical records…. Donald Trump’s team, I heard him on your air last hour insisting that everything is okay and that…there’s nothing to see here. And your anchor rightly asked, ‘Well, if that’s true, why not just put them out?’”

At 1:12 this morning, Trump posted on his social media site: “I believe it is very important that Kamala Harris pass a test on Cognitive Stamina and Agility. Her actions have led many to believe that there could be something very wrong with her.” Sams hit that as well, noting that in the middle of the night, Trump felt obliged to write about Harris and a cognitive test “[a]s he refuses to release his medical records, sit with 60 Minutes, or debate her again—instead retreating solely to rambling rallies where he’s increasingly making no sense[.] Is he okay?”

In Erie, Pennsylvania, today, Harris outlined how her proposals for an “opportunity economy” will help Black men, calling for business loans for entrepreneurs, more apprenticeships, rules for cryptocurrency exchanges, and study of diseases that disproportionately affect Black men.

She also continues her outreach to Republicans. Today, former Trump friend and talk show host Geraldo Rivera endorsed her. So did former Wisconsin Republican state senate majority leader Dale Schultz. “I tell people, ‘Look, I didn’t leave the party. The party left me,’” he said. “This is a critically important race, and…Donald Trump should never be allowed in the Oval Office again.”

Today Harris’s campaign announced she will be sitting down with Fox News Channel reporter Bret Baier for an interview on Wednesday from the battleground state of Pennsylvania. The Fox News Channel is scheduled to tape a town hall with Trump in front of an audience of women on Tuesday. It is supposed to air on Wednesday morning, while the Harris interview will air Wednesday night.

At a rally in Erie, Pennsylvania, tonight, Harris reiterated Trump’s refusal to talk to any but the right-wing media and recalled his promise to terminate the Constitution. And then she used Trump’s own words against him, playing a video montage of Trump’s calls for violence, his threats against “the enemy within,” and his call for using the military against his political opponents.

“You heard his words, coming from him,” she told the audience. “[H]e considers anyone who doesn’t support him or who will not bend to his will an enemy of our country…. He’s saying that he would use the military to go after them…. And we know who he would target because he has attacked them before. Journalists whose stories he doesn’t like. Election officials who refuse to cheat by…finding extra votes for him. Judges who insist on following the law instead of bending to his will. This is among the reasons I believe so strongly that a second Trump term would be a huge risk for America, and dangerous…. Donald Trump is increasingly unstable and unhinged. And he is out for unchecked power, that’s what he’s looking for.”

In Oaks, Pennsylvania, tonight, Trump was supposed to take questions from preselected attendees at a town hall with North Dakota governor Kristi Noem. He did, at first, although his answers were all over the place and he urged people to vote on January 5. But then, in the hot and crowded space, two people needed medical attention. Slurring, Trump then said: “Let’s not do any more questions. Let’s just listen to music. Let’s make it into a music. Who the hell wants to hear questions, right?” And then he stood on stage and swayed for 39 minutes of songs from his personal playlist before seeming to recall that he was supposed to be talking about the election, which he suddenly told the confused crowd was “the most important election in the history of our country” before turning back to the music.

Rob Crilly of the U.K.’s The Daily Mail wrote: “I was at Trump's golden escalator launch, flew out of Washington with him in 2020 and have probably been to 100 rallies, give or take. Have never seen anything like tonight.” The headline over Marianne LeVine’s Washington Post story about the event read: “Trump sways and bops to music for 39 minutes in bizarre town-hall episode.

“The scene comes as Vice President Kamala Harris has called Trump, 78, unstable and called into question his mental acuity.”

hcr
Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 06:49 am
@engineer,
What is your level of confidence in the accuracy of presidential election polls?
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 09:18 am
@Bogulum,
I think its of a lower accuracy than EVER as some folks actually <gasp> LIE to sway the results and try to influence the polls so the masses might think there’s no need to push harder to get out the vote…etc.

Polls and the poll taking process and is flawed. They have outlived their served to believe or rely on the polls. This election is peculiar one, to say the least,and follows no paradigm. Trump can say or do anything and suffer no consequence as far as polls indicate. Moreover, polls have little to no correlation to how the Electoral college will vote.

Harris would be best served not letting the polls be her guide.
The Harris campaign should work hard to mobilize those people who don’t typically vote, to get off their asses because democracy is at stake. Can’t imagine living in a country where that POS gets elected.
Bogulum
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 09:50 am
@Ragman,
Thanks Ragman. The reason I asked engineer is because his post gives credence to "recent polls".
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 04:00 pm
@cherrie,
The electoral college isn't a separate institution. It only means that the citizens vote for state delegates and the delegates vote for president. Many states have winner take all systems, so that if one candidate gets a plurality of the votes, he gets all of the delegates.

It was created when they were writing the Constitution in 1787. Due to the poor communications of the day, they were afraid that you'd get 100 candidates each with 1% of the vote and this was an effort to prevent that. Some people today feel that it continues to have some benefits.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 04:04 pm
@hightor,
Mind reading arguments are automatically invalid.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Oct, 2024 04:38 pm
@Brandon9000,
So is hit and run sealioning.
0 Replies
 
 

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