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Katrina-Bush and the political questions begin

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 10:39 am
Thomas wrote:
Tico -- were these editorials or Op-Ed pieces? Do you realize there's a difference?

(No scorn intended -- I didn't notice the difference myself until Frank Apisa pointed it out to me about a year back.)



Editorials ... all of them.


9/1/05: (NYT) Editorial

7/14/93: (NYT) Editorial 433 words, Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 18, Column 1

4/28/01: (NYT) Editorial 737 words, Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 14, Column 1

6/24/03: (NYT) Editorial 307 words, Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 30, Column 1

4/13/2005: (NYT) Editorial 415 words, Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 18, Column 1
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 10:56 am
parados wrote:
Tico - I see no schizophrenia at all in the pieces you posted. They are talking about completely different areas. What is down river of New Orleans that is affected by the levees there? What farming is being promoted by levees in New Orleans? What tributaries of the Mississipi regularly flood New Orleans?

The present piece and previous pieces both talk about destruction of wetlands and how it is bad.

The control of floods upriver make New Orleans more susceptable to flooding. That has always been the argument about flood control, forcing water to stay in the channel upriver means more water downriver. Looks pretty consistent to me when you examine the reality of what it talks about and not just jump on the word "flood" as a common denominator.


The tone of all of these past editorials is negative towards flood control projects in general, and the Army Corp of Engineer's projects in particular. Before Hurricane Katrina, they seemed to think these projects were just "pork." Now all of a sudden they are enamored with the flood control projects of the Corp? Only now, post Hurricane Katrina, are they clamoring about Congress slashing the flood protection budget?


Look at their April 13, 2005, editorial:

Quote:
Anyone who cares about responsible budgeting and the health of America's rivers and wetlands should pay attention to a bill now before the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. The bill would shovel $17 billion at the Army Corps of Engineers for flood control and other water-related projects -- this at a time when President Bush is asking for major cuts in Medicaid and other important domestic programs. Among these projects is a $2.7 billion boondoggle on the Mississippi River that has twice flunked inspection by the National Academy of Sciences.

The Government Accountability Office and other watchdogs accuse the corps of routinely inflating the economic benefits of its projects. And environmentalists blame it for turning free-flowing rivers into lifeless canals and destroying millions of acres of wetlands -- usually in the name of flood control and navigation but mostly to satisfy Congress's appetite for pork.

This is a bad piece of legislation.


... and contrast that with their September 1, 2005, editorial:

Quote:
While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast's most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans's levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane's surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area's flood protection?



5 months ago they thought that was a "bad piece of legislation." What has happened since then to change their minds? Oh, yeah ... Hurricane Katrina. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 10:59 am
sozobe wrote:
The hotlinked "pages" in the phrase "Given the hysteria enveloping the editorial pages of the NYT due to hurricane Katrina," at Tico's source would seem to indicate the former (it goes to a Krugman column).

No it doesn't, but the editorial it goes to doesn't talk about the propriety of levees, in New Orleans or elsewhere. Instead, it criticizes the federal government's immediate response to the disaster, which it finds unacceptable. If this is hysteria, it's hysteria that president Bush agrees with.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:01 am
This is what the word "pages", which is hotlinked, takes me to in Tico's source material:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/opinion/02krugman.html?pagewanted=print

The source material:

http://eurota.blogspot.com/2005/09/msm-in-their-own-words-continuing.html

(Note, "pages", not "hysteria" or "eveloping".)
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:06 am
Tico: I see no discrepancy between 'Pork barrel levees have been built in lots of places where they don't belong', and 'Essential levees have not been built in New Orleans, where they do belong'. In fact, I would have said this is a fairly common misfeature of federal spending in general. For just one other example, witness the federal government spend one amount to protect each New Yorker from terrorists, and a multiple of that amount to protect each North Dakotan.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:07 am
sozobe wrote:
(Note, "pages", not "hysteria" or "eveloping".)

Gotcha. Thanks for the correction!
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:09 am
From the Krugman column Thomas cited:

Quote:
I don't think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn't rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn't get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I'd argue, our current leaders just aren't serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don't like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.


I couldn't agree more with the low priority of helping those in need and spending on preventitive measures.

Of interesting note, as pointed out on an NPR talk show this morning by a guy from the Washington Post, the first item on the schedule for a vote when our representatives return from vacation is the permenant repeal of the estate tax.

He suggested that following Katrina the nation will be re-assessing priorities.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:12 am
That could be a silver lining.

I see a lot of potential silver linings and reassesssments, hope some of 'em come to fruition.

(np Thomas...)
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terrygallagher
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:21 am
What worries me is the hard line on looters. I'm not saying their actions aren't discusting and dispicable, but for effort to be put in to stopping somebody robbing stuff when theres kids with no water to drink seems insaine.

And anyway, what are they going to do? What is zero tolarence on looters, when theres no police stations?




Edit - Sorry, since seen the looters thread, feel free to ignore this.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:22 am
Thomas wrote:
Tico: I see no discrepancy between 'Pork barrel levees have been built in lots of places where they don't belong', and 'Essential levees have not been built in New Orleans, where they do belong'. In fact, I would have said this is a fairly common misfeature of federal spending in general. For just one other example, witness the federal government spend one amount to protect each New Yorker from terrorists, and a multiple of that amount to protect each North Dakotan.


Point taken, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:25 am
terrygallagher wrote:
And anyway, what are they going to do? What is zero tolarence on looters, when theres no police stations?


That means shoot to kill. We don't have any jails, prisons, courts or magistrates to process them, so shoot to kill so we don't have to deal with them any more.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 11:37 am
Ticomaya wrote:


5 months ago they thought that was a "bad piece of legislation." What has happened since then to change their minds? Oh, yeah ... Hurricane Katrina. Rolling Eyes

Who said they changed their mind about the legislation. It contained 2.7 billion for a boondoggle further up the Mississipi and how much for levees in New Orleans? Seems like it was and still is BAD LEGISLATION.

If they opposed building a system of levees in podunk Iowa then, it doesn't mean they changed their mind about levee upgrades in New Orleans from then to now.

Reread the editorials Tico. They all seem to be for finding the best places to spend the money and doing it without all the pork.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 07:24 pm
One acre of wetlands around Mississippi delta lost every 24 minutes, from what I recently heard (can't remember the source).

Of the 200+ disaster drills that FEMA did last year, only two related to hurricanes, and those were in conjunction with an opportunistic terror attack. None were on natural disasters (NBC Nightly News tonight).

A New Orleans professor involved in the most pertinent one, involving a 'Hurricane Pam' hitting NO in almost the same exact scenario as Katrina,
said that government engineers didn't take it seriously and giggled and snickered in the back of the room.

When the subject of a tent city was brought up, a FEMA official said "Americans don't live in tents." (NBC News tonight)

One of the bus drivers that arrived in N.O. today with a bus was contacted only yesterday, in Orlando, FL.

The fear level of some FEMA, truck/ambulance/bus drivers about entering the city speaks more to their stereotypical prejudices and fears than anything else.

The delay in response was most likely a result of the systemic slowness of the military model in decision making and priorities in handling disasters.
Have to SECURE WITH TROOPS FIRST, before you do anything else. So no food, water, evacuation - until they moved troops in. Some from as far away as Iraq.

No ships, even cruise ships, moved in.

No parachuting in of pallets of water and food.

No lowering of pallets of food or water via helicopters.

New Orleans International Airport is one huge triage area. The airport has been open since the day after. Military planes just began taking them out.

Everyone has known for a long, long time, that the levees and pumps would fail for anything over a Category 3 hurricane. ACOE funding has been slashed and denied for New Orleans work for years.

We did a better job with the Berlin airlift after World War II - over 60 years ago.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 07:27 pm
Sumac
Good summary, Sumac. Only the tip of the iceberg though. Louisiana is notorious for have the most corrupt government in the country. The New Orleans citizens are paying for it now.

BBB
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Sep, 2005 07:31 pm
Historically, that has been true, BBB. State leadership anyway. Don't know about now.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 06:27 pm
There was an interview on Dateline NBC last night that should be mentioned here.


They interview a black youngster of perhaps 10 years of age in a cut-off section of New Orleans...an articulate young man who spoke eloquently and passionately about the circumstances with which he, and the people around him, were confronted.

It was the most imperssive bit of tape I, personally, have ever seen on television. The way the youngster presented his case...the logic he used...the controlled anger he brought to his pleas for help during the interview simply took my breath away.

The short segment came and was gone without fanfare in less than a minute...but I have not been able to get it out of my mind since. I am sure anyone who saw it appreciates that I am not engaging in hyperbole here.

This was truly something very, very special.

Too bad our president, leading and supposedly comforting our nation during this crisis, has not been able to convey one tenth the feeling, conviction, and intensity of that young man.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 06:29 pm
I am praying for the day when we don't describe black people as articulate.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 06:32 pm
Lash wrote:
I am praying for the day when we don't describe black people as articulate.


Yeah..."praying" should do a lot of good.

The young man was articulate....one hell of a lot more articulate than our president.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 06:52 pm
I'm fuming for the day we don't describe black people as articulate.

It's the new put down.

black + ability to speak coherently = articulate

LOL!!
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2005 07:27 pm
I am white and articulate, and that is no put down. But I do get the drift of your first statement.

The young man was again on NBC Nightly News. Last night was better. Tonight was more a followup human interest piece based on the obvious winning ways of his preceding appearance.
0 Replies
 
 

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