What Have YOU Sacrificed?

I can say for certain that I've sacrificed nothing but extra taxes and what little faith I had in my government. And I don't know many people who have sacrificed more than that.

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Someone the other day was talking about gathering coat hangers as a boy to contibute during WWII. They needed all the metal they could find, I guess. (Guessing only because I wasn't even a twinkle at that time.)

I'm sure we've all heard stories of sacrifices and contributions, and how the women went to work in the factories cause the men had been called up, etc in the '40's. Everyone was united and patriotic and had a common goal.

No one but the families of the soldiers appear to be contributing now. We've been asked to sacrifice nothing, as the article points out, but the children. That makes for a pretty heavy load being put on the backs of the few.

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squinney wrote:

Someone the other day was talking about gathering coat hangers as a boy to contibute during WWII. They needed all the metal they could find, I guess. (Guessing only because I wasn't even a twinkle at that time.)

I'm sure we've all heard stories of sacrifices and contributions, and how the women went to work in the factories cause the men had been called up, etc in the '40's. Everyone was united and patriotic and had a common goal.

No one but the families of the soldiers appear to be contributing now. We've been asked to sacrifice nothing, as the article points out, but the children. That makes for a pretty heavy load being put on the backs of the few.

So then start making a sacrifices then. I know I have.

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It seems to me that the writer is making a huge leap in assuming to know what Bush means when he speaks of sacrifice. He's making a guess as to what Bush means and it's nothing more than that. The story plays up a divide (religion) more than it explains any to me.

Roosevelt's speech is hardly an apt comparison. In that timeframe there were shortages of steel, silk, nylon, glass, rubber, etc.. Everyone sacrificed by giving up on a lot of things in an effort to build the machines and supply the troops of WWII. The scale of this war is very different and doesn't require the massive marshalling of raw materials.

It is interesting to read the sections of Roosevelt's speech the writer skipped over that create the context for the parts he used. In Roosevelt's speech he mentions the numerous rumours about how Germany and Japan were about to land troops on North American shores. He also sets the stage for those sacrifices he wanted of the public by telling them "For what we send abroad, we shall be repaid within a reasonable time following the close of hostilities, in similar materials, or, at our option, in other goods of many kinds, which they can produce and which we need.". He mentions the setting aside of political partisanship numerous times as well.

Where are we in comparison? Would as many people be complaining about the financial cost of this war if they beleived that they were going to be repaid by the Afgans and Iraqis? Has partisanship been set aside?

Perhaps what explains more than anything else is that it's entirely foreign to the concept of American patriotism to give to another country and not expect repayment.

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Quote:

It seems to me that the writer is making a huge leap in assuming to know what Bush means when he speaks of sacrifice. He's making a guess as to what Bush means and it's nothing more than that. The story plays up a divide (religion) more than it explains any to me.

I think that's a bit rough fishin'. Does Bush specify what he means by "sacrifice"? If not then everyone is reduced to guessing.

Any idea what he meant?

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goodfielder wrote:

I think that's a bit rough fishin'. Does Bush specify what he means by "sacrifice"? If not then everyone is reduced to guessing.

Any idea what he meant?

I have no idea exactly what Bush means. I'm forced to guess just like everyone else is. (He does allude to "democracy" and "freedom" on occassion but making a coherent statement is beyond his grasp.)

But that's exactly my point. The author has no way of knowing either and playing it as some religious vision gets people spun up over nothing but speculation.

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As a matter of logic, I think it utterly ridiculous to use having had a lot of poor bastards killed as a reason to keep killing them.

That is like saying that, if one decides that gambling is a good way to make money, and tries to do so, that the fact that one has lost a lot of money means that you can't stop.

Having said that about the logic - I am horrified at the thought of America etc pulling out now and leaving Iraq to destroy itself in civil war.

I just hope desperately that something can be achieved there - and it will not be a long, slow, morass of death - which, in the end, America etc have to give up on.

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dlowan wrote:

As a matter of logic, I think it utterly ridiculous to use having had a lot of poor bastards killed as a reason to keep killing them.

That is like saying that, if one decides that gambling is a good way to make money, and tries to do so, that the fact that one has lost a lot of money means that you can't stop.

Having said that about the logic - I am horrified at the thought of America etc pulling out now and leaving Iraq to destroy itself in civil war.

I just hope desperately that something can be achieved there - and it will not be a long, slow, morass of death - which, in the end, America etc have to give up on.

I read somewhere (I really did) that animals, unlike humans, understand how to cut their losses. I think it was in an undergrad psychology text but it was in relation to (if I remember correctly) a study of the effects of intermittent reinforcement on human gambling habits (following Skinner). Apparently we - unlike the average bear Boo-Boo - will keep going and going and going and losing, losing, losing. Perhaps that's what's driving Bush.

That or a form of psychopathological stubborness and a deep-seated fear of failure.

Time to get this mess sorted out before it really blows up. Time for him to start admitting it to himself and then to his nation. Only then will the reality of what is happening drive policy in response. At the moment the deluded are creating wrong policy.

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Is anyone going to say what they have gone without or what they have sacrificed so that the troops are not alone?

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Baldimo wrote:

Is anyone going to say what they have gone without or what they have sacrificed so that the troops are not alone?

That's an interesting question - but only the first bit. Asking what someone has gone without or sacrificed seems to me to be relevant but - "so that the troops are not alone" seems to be making an assumption. It's almost disjointed. But I will stand corrected on that because I might be missing the point. And I feel I must make it clear that last point is not me being a smart-arse.

What have I gone without (given I am in Australia)? Nothing. What have I sacrificed? Nothing. The fighting is being done by professional military personnel from the Australian Defence Force. All I have done is pay my taxes.

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Baldimo wrote:

Is anyone going to say what they have gone without or what they have sacrificed so that the troops are not alone?

Credibility, I think you all have sacrificed your credibility. What was it, three DAYS from 'We are ALL Americans now' to 'F*ck Saddam, he's going down'?

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FreeDuck wrote:

I can say for certain that I've sacrificed nothing but extra taxes and what little faith I had in my government. And I don't know many people who have sacrificed more than that.

Except those of us who sacrificed parts of our bodies,or our lives,or those families that have lost loved ones.

But other then them,your right,not many have sacrificed more then you have.

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And, that was my point, mysteryman. Would a shared sacrifice make a difference?

We were all together on going into Afghanistan. We were attacked and all felt the impact of 9/11 caused by a group based there.

Roosevelt spelled out what he meant by sacrifice. Bush just keeps repeating sacrifice without telling us what it means or how we can contribute, which I feel would unite us behind the war if made clear and convincing.

I have family involved in Afghanistan and Iraq. Is my sacrifice for my country my two family members? That seems rather harsh.

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Would a shared sacrifice make a difference?

Too right it would squinney.

If we have no stake in what happens we don't care. If I'm not putting a pack on my back and putting myself in the way of danger then I don't care. I have no stake in it. Now multiply that by a couple of hundred million who have no stake in it, who are not affected by it one way or the other and you have a massive amount of indifference.

Hence the reasoning behind the policy that says there will be no draft for this war.

The sacrifice, the real sacrifice, must be limited to military personnel (regular and reservists). A draft - which would mean universal sacrifice - would see the end of this escapade in short order.

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I have given up eating butter.

Now what does this have to do with sacrifice for the cause you may wonder. Well, by not purchasing butter I am saving the trucks from delivering the butter to the market and that in turn helps to save on oil for gasoline so I can reduce our dependence upon Iraqi oil supplies. It also means the cow from whence the butter first began will not be as stressed and therefore will perhaps issue forth a happier milk later on and so little Ellen and Frodo will be getting unstressed butter on their toast in the morning before they walk off to school so they will be happier. Keep in mind happier children means better test scores and learning skills which means that in 30 years these children may become our nations leaders and find a way to bring about world peace. (I'm not just insane, I am also a fanatical dreamer). So there you have it, I have given up butter for the good of all peoplekind. Giving up butter helps reduce oil consumption and makes dairy cows happier as they have to work less for the greedy and ugly American (ah yes The Ugly American a wonderful book by Lederer and Burdick). Join me compadres in shunning butter and perhaps even whipped cream. Switch to CoolWhip for the benefit of all.

Now, placing all of this aside, I have not yet given up all dairy products (it is a slow process) but I am aware that at some point down the road I may be asked to give up beef or sugar or something else and if President Bush states clearly what it is, then that is what I will do. For the benefit and freedom of both my country and the world I am more than willing...are you?

*These are not just the idle thoughts of a deranged man, these thoughts have been thought out*

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Baldimo wrote:

squinney wrote:
Someone the other day was talking about gathering coat hangers as a boy to contibute during WWII. They needed all the metal they could find, I guess. (Guessing only because I wasn't even a twinkle at that time.)

I'm sure we've all heard stories of sacrifices and contributions, and how the women went to work in the factories cause the men had been called up, etc in the '40's. Everyone was united and patriotic and had a common goal.

No one but the families of the soldiers appear to be contributing now. We've been asked to sacrifice nothing, as the article points out, but the children. That makes for a pretty heavy load being put on the backs of the few.

So then start making a sacrifices then. I know I have.

Could you take just maybe two steps down from your pedestal Baldimo? I can't hear you well.

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Baldimo wrote:

Is anyone going to say what they have gone without or what they have sacrificed so that the troops are not alone?

Okay Baldimo I'll bite. I see you are chomping at the bit to trumpet your nobleness, so against my better judgement I say, you start.

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dlowan wrote:

Having said that about the logic - I am horrified at the thought of America etc pulling out now and leaving Iraq to destroy itself in civil war.
I just hope desperately that something can be achieved there - and it will not be a long, slow, morass of death - which, in the end, America etc have to give up on.

dlowan Iraq will and is destroying itself with Civil War America involved or not, our presence will not stop that and I'm not sure it's supposed to.

As far as what can be achieved.... ask Halliburton, BKR and Dick Cheney. That part is going along fine.

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Sure - Dys and I have had that discussion - and I am very worried that you are both right.

Still, as a citizen in a country that assisted in the invasion, I feel really, really concerned about leaving the current mess.

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What Have YOU Sacrificed?

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