Murder: 90 days in jail

When the story about the torture and murder incidents became public for the first time, Bush said

Quote:

"I'm comfortable that we're getting to the bottom of the situation and I know we're doing so in a transparent way. Obviously, ours is a country that respects human rights and human dignity, and if those rights and dignity have been denied, we will hold people to account."

Obviously? Hold people to account?

How does a country show respect for human rights and human dignity by sentencing somebody who tortured a person to death to a 90 day sentence?

Usually the rightwing nutjobs would go "Just a few bad apples, and the military is very well capable of handling those".

I will go by the standard set that way. Obviously, the military is in favor of torturing innocent people to death. I can't find any other possible explanation for these ridiculous sentences.

"A country that respects human rights and human dignity"? Obviously not.

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To me it seems that two things are possible. Either they were following orders in which case the light sentences would make sense (if we were holding higher ups accountable, which we're not) or they were a few bad apples in which case they ought to be punished just the same as if they had beaten one of their co-workers to death. Sounds like we fall short under any circumstance.

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FreeDuck, I'm trying to be optimistic. I'm trying to believe people when they are saying "We can handle this situation, those responsible will be brought to justice".

Therefore, I'm trying to consider the possibility that they were forced to do this, that they were following orders. Then somebody else has to be responsible, and should be brought to justice.

But if neither is happening, I just can't believe in those statements anymore. Innocent people are being tortured to death, and the perpetrators get 90 day sentences. Or less.

What I don't understand is that there is no more of an outcry about this. People seem to be totally indifferent to what's happening.

Reread the reports of what has happened:

Quote:

The two were chained to the ceilings of their cells for days at a time and beaten on the legs. They had been subjected to a blow known as the "common peroneal strike", aimed at a point just below the knee and intended to disable. Coroners in the Habibullah case said his legs "had basically been pulpified" and looked as though they had been run over by a bus.

Quote:

When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummelled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they had finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

An innocent man. And the interrogator knew that.

Now, Bush's reaction:

Quote:

"I think the world ought to be - pay attention to the contrast between a society which was run by a brutal tyrant in which there was no transparency and a society in which the whole world watches a government find the facts, lay the facts out for the citizens to see, and that punishment, when appropriate, be delivered."

Yes, the world is paying attention. And, in the light of this, I can just echo nimh's statement on the other thread: I'm close to declaring the US the enemy now.

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old europe wrote:

Yes, the world is paying attention. And, in the light of this, I can just echo nimh's statement on the other thread: I'm close to declaring the US the enemy now.

whoopity-do-da. Rolling Eyes

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http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/01/1048962731737.html?oneclick=true

US Marines moved into the southern Iraqi town of Shatrah today to recover the body of a dead comrade which had been hanged in the town square, officers said.

Hundreds of troops were dispatched on the operation after intelligence reports indicated the body of a dead American, who was killed in a firefight last week, had been paraded through the streets and hanged in public.

"We would like to retrieve the body of the marine but it is not our sole purpose," said Lieutenant-Colonel Pete Owen, of the First Marine Expeditionary Force.

Military sources said another part of the operation was to arm local militias to fight against members of the ruling Baath party loyal to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.

Shatrah is some 40 km north of Nasiriyah, where Iraqi forces have been harassing US supply lines and putting up tough resistance for more than a week.

- AFP

Yea...we're the bad guys and we deserve this.

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woiyo wrote:

Yea...we're the bad guys and we deserve this.

Obviously not. Nevertheless, the marine was killed in a firefight. Given the choice, I had rather paraded my dead body through the streets and hanged than being tortured to death over a course of five days. What about you?

And, on this occasion, I'll repost this little excerpt from the Human Rights Watch:

Quote:

In addition, a compromised prohibition of torture undermines other human rights. That endangers us all, in part because of the dangerous implications for the campaign against terrorism. Why, after all, is it acceptable to breach the fundamental prohibition of torture but not acceptable to breach the fundamental prohibition against attacking civilians? The torturer may justify his conduct by appeal to a higher good, but so do most terrorists. In neither case should the end be allowed to justify the means.

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woiyo wrote:

Hundreds of troops were dispatched on the operation after intelligence reports indicated the body of a dead American, who was killed in a firefight last week, had been paraded through the streets and hanged in public. . . .

Yea...we're the bad guys and we deserve this.

The soldier was killed in a firefight. He is one more American son to add to the thousands that Bush willfully sends to their death in a war without end.

This American soldier wasn't taken alive, he wasn't chained to a ceiling, and he wasn't brutally beaten and tortured for five days until his body parts were pulp.

If the Iraqi resistance fighters had done something like this--we would be screaming bloody murder. We would demand that the perpetrators of such horror be held accountable with their lives for war crimes.

We demand that the enemy comply with the Geneva Convention with respect to treatment of our captured soldiers--and at the same time--we claim the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to our treatment of people we take captive.

While people like McGentrix don't give a damn how we present ourselves to the world--whoopity-do-da--the whole world IS watching and they hate us for our self-righteous hypocrisy. We aren't fighting terrorism--we're becoming the terrorists by threatening the whole world: "Do as we SAY; not as we DO."

As long as we're the BULLY / DICTATOR of the world and strong-arm others to do as we say under the threat of deadly force--there will be those who will be enraged, filled with hate for us, and will retaliate against us. We're fueling the war on terrorism.

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I'm having trouble making a connection between a dead marine in Iraq and a dead taxi driver in Afghanistan.

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Debra, who is exactly that we are bullying? Ruthless dictators? Terrorist groups? Rogue nations?

Is the spread of democracy considered bullying now? Is helping people find their voice for freedom bullying? Is threatening regimes with histories of human rights abuse and supporting terrorism bullying?

You are right. I DON'T CARE how THOSE people see us. I HOPE they ARE afraid of us. IF some people in the already free nations of this world don't like what we are doing and want to consider us the enemy, well TS for us, right?

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McGentrix wrote:

Debra, who is exactly that we are bullying? Ruthless dictators? Terrorist groups? Rogue nations?

Is the spread of democracy considered bullying now? Is helping people find their voice for freedom bullying? Is threatening regimes with histories of human rights abuse and supporting terrorism bullying?

You are right. I DON'T CARE how THOSE people see us. I HOPE they ARE afraid of us. IF some people in the already free nations of this world don't like what we are doing and want to consider us the enemy, well TS for us, right?

What people like Debra fail to understand is that the alternative to "bullying" is ignoring.

From a Constitutional perspective, we should not care how a nation governs itself so long as they do not become a risk to our national security. Yet, when the UN says the WORLD needs to stop oppression in African Nations for example, Liberals support that effort. Yet, when a nation is classified as a clear and present danger to the US by our givernment and we take action, we are the bullies.

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Nah not really McG. We know who's responsible. Get this straight, it's not America we're pissed at, it's Bush and his cohort of right wing nutbars and those Republicans and spineless Democrats who are going along with all this.

Once Bush is gone, once the Congress is balanced again and the right wing nutjobs in the legislature have been kicked in the arse and told to get out of Dodge we'll be fine with your country.

No-one with half a brain is going to object to a rational foreign policy for the US. Did you hear us going nutso when you went into Afghanistan? No. When did it hit the fan? When Bush and his nutbar mates went into Iraq.

Sorry I shouldn't call people nutbars, nutjobs and the like, it's unseemly and rude. Felt good though, just for a minute Very Happy

anyway fire away :wink:

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But, keep in mind that people like me support our president and agree that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do. People like me elected him into office twice in hopes thyat he would do the things he has done in regards to foreign policy. What use is being the dominate country in the world if you are not allowed to swing some weight around once in awhile?

It is unfortunate that the Iraqi people need to be treated like children instead of adults. The looting, the inability to protect themselves from themselves, the meaningless violence are what keep the coalition forces in Iraq. The squabbling tribal mindset that permeates the middle eastern culture and keeps the middle east a century behind the rest of the world. Were it not for their inability ti unite as a single country and learn from the previous lessons hundreds of other countries have given in their formation, this could all have been done with by now.

The left seems to think that us conservatives enjoy war and watching people die. That couldn't be further from the truth. I personally have no wish for anyone to die as a result of war, but realistically that's not the way it works. Saddam was a ruthless dictator that threatened the stability of the middle east and our allies and ourselves. He had 13 years to change his ways and he failed.

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Tis true that the dominant countries in the world do the arm swinging. Human nature I suppose.

America is no different to any of the others that, finding themselves in a position of dominance, have decided to use that authority.

But until recently America has managed to balance it's bad dominant behaviour with some good dominant behaviour. Under Bush it's been mainly bad dominant behaviour. Next in line is either China or India. They will be along any time now. Not looking forward to either taking over as the dominant world power.

In a sense what is happening now in Iraq is an unravelling. Bush has loosened the ties that bound Iraq, the ties that were imposed after WWI on Mesopotamia. Iraq will eventually fall apart. Kurds in the north, Sunni in the centre, Shia in the south (aligned to their mates in Iran).

Bush's plan to control Iraq's fantastic oil reserves has failed.

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Debra_Law wrote:

woiyo wrote:
Hundreds of troops were dispatched on the operation after intelligence reports indicated the body of a dead American, who was killed in a firefight last week, had been paraded through the streets and hanged in public. . . .

Yea...we're the bad guys and we deserve this.

The soldier was killed in a firefight. He is one more American son to add to the thousands that Bush willfully sends to their death in a war without end.

This American soldier wasn't taken alive, he wasn't chained to a ceiling, and he wasn't brutally beaten and tortured for five days until his body parts were pulp.

If the Iraqi resistance fighters had done something like this--we would be screaming bloody murder. We would demand that the perpetrators of such horror be held accountable with their lives for war crimes.

We demand that the enemy comply with the Geneva Convention with respect to treatment of our captured soldiers--and at the same time--we claim the Geneva Convention does NOT apply to our treatment of people we take captive.

While people like McGentrix don't give a damn how we present ourselves to the world--whoopity-do-da--the whole world IS watching and they hate us for our self-righteous hypocrisy. We aren't fighting terrorism--we're becoming the terrorists by threatening the whole world: "Do as we SAY; not as we DO."

As long as we're the BULLY / DICTATOR of the world and strong-arm others to do as we say under the threat of deadly force--there will be those who will be enraged, filled with hate for us, and will retaliate against us. We're fueling the war on terrorism.

McGentrix wrote:

Debra, who is exactly that we are bullying? Ruthless dictators? Terrorist groups? Rogue nations?

Is the spread of democracy considered bullying now? Is helping people find their voice for freedom bullying? Is threatening regimes with histories of human rights abuse and supporting terrorism bullying?

You are right. I DON'T CARE how THOSE people see us. I HOPE they ARE afraid of us. IF some people in the already free nations of this world don't like what we are doing and want to consider us the enemy, well TS for us, right?

Sidestepping again.

Go back and read the title of this thread: Murder: 90 days in jail.

How can you justify beating and torturing captives until their body parts are mush and until they die agonizing deaths? How would you feel if the 22-year-old victim was YOUR son or one of your countrymen? Wouldn't you be enraged? Would you respect the authority of the holier-than-thou country that allowed its invading forces to commit atrocities and allowed those atrocities to go virtually unpunished?

You're merely spewing holier-than-thou platitudes. You're not addressing the issues.

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woiyo wrote:

What people like Debra fail to understand is that the alternative to "bullying" is ignoring.

From a Constitutional perspective, we should not care how a nation governs itself so long as they do not become a risk to our national security. Yet, when the UN says the WORLD needs to stop oppression in African Nations for example, Liberals support that effort. Yet, when a nation is classified as a clear and present danger to the US by our givernment and we take action, we are the bullies.

First, you are wrong: The alternative to bullying is NOT IGNORING. You seem to think there are only two options. That's very narrow-minded of you--especially when there are thousands of options on the continuum of action between bullying and ignoring.

Second: You've built a strawman argument in order to avoid the issue.

Go back to the topic of this thread: Murder: 90 days in jail.

Are you suggesting--as soon as some nation is considered a danger to the United States--that danger assessment somehow justifies the beating and torturing to death of their countrymen?

Don't you agree that our "do as we SAY, not as we do" actions send an enraging message to the rest of the world? We're not combating terrorism against us; we're fueling it.

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woiyo wrote:

Debra_Law wrote:
The article didn't say why the two Afghans were detained at the military base. But, it doesn't matter "why" they were there in the first place--it matters what happened to them once they got there.

No Debra...you are correct. The article did not say anything to the relavent facts to your complaint.

Maybe they were enemy soldiers. Maybe they wer violent while being held as a "pow". Maybe they were inncoent bystanders?

Why not look it up yourself? Dont you care?

Anyway, just click this link cause I made a thread about it back then, but hey everybody was too busy getting in on the debate whether a copy of the Koran was manhandled at Gitmo or not to note the news of American soldiers torturing innocent people to death...:

US tortures Afghan, presumed innocent, to death

woiyo wrote:

I am sure someone can find this out so we can discuss the actual merits of your costiton.

Why, if they HAD been enemy combatants, would it not have been a shame that those who chose to beat their legs to pulp until they were tortured to death got only a demotion or at most 90 days?

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I am not trying to justify it. I do not believe it can be justified. That's why I didn't try to.

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woiyo apparently thinks it's all right to torture POWs and enemy combatants. What the hell. It's THEM, not US.

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McGentrix wrote:

Debra, who is exactly that we are bullying? Ruthless dictators? Terrorist groups? Rogue nations?

And innocent taxi drivers, apparently. "Bullying" standing for "torturing to death even as the assumption was already that he was innocent".

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woiyo wrote:

Yet, when a nation is classified as a clear and present danger to the US by our givernment and we take action, we are the bullies.

No, you are the bullies when you start arresting random people and torturing them to death. These soldiers did. And apparently, you - as in the United States system - decided to practically let them get away with it.

Can't believe that even in as clear-cut a case as this -- innocent victim, tortured to death, inside prison -- you are trying to deflect the charge of abuse (murder) by changing the subject.

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Murder: 90 days in jail

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