I need ideas: Creative discipline for sassing

Three foster kids? Oh my. I admire you despite your obvious insanity. That's got to be tough. But so necessary. Thanks for doing that.

Our time out experience is just exactly what you describe: He acknowledges his misdeed, promises not to do it again, says he understands and then is right back doing it again.

The "if.... then...." thing doesn't work so well with Mo. In a situation like picking up after himself I really only have success if I say something like "I'll sit here with you while you do it but I won't play any games or be silly with you until it's done."

The whole action = consequence thing seems to be broken.

I dont think this idea would work too well seeing how Mo just POPS out with this sass stuff.. but

What about giving him some words he CAN use when he realllly wants something? Instead of demaning NOW!! what about giving him a set of words that dont make your hairs stand on end and still gives him the power he is demanding at that point?

Im sorry if that doesnt make sense, but my thought process behind this suggestion is :
He can learn to pay attention to what comes out of his mouth if he has to use only a certain set of words. These words will not be offencive and will only be words HE can use so he doesnt have to copy YOUR words. Copying your words ( ex- WHAT did you say? ) doesnt GIVE him power , so he has to raise his voice, demand, be angry etc..
These words also will not put you in freak out mode and wont catch you by surprise. With that you can respond easier, even take the time to do the 'Jewish gramma" if that is what is necessary to teach a lesson at the time of the outburst.
Far fetched.. probally not explained well suggestion.. but?

I know what you mean shewolf.

We DO do that.

Mo knows that if he says "Give me a banana NOW" that the answer is "No."

He knows that if he says "May I have a banana please?" that the answer is "Yes."

So when he does the "NOW" thing, I don't think he really wants whatever he is asking for but... I don't know.... it almost seems like he just wants to ask for something.

Sometimes too, when he says "May I have a banana please?" he doesn't really want a banana. I know this because he will give it to the dog, or just smash it up, or whatever. Again, I think he just wants to ask for something.

If I ask "Why did you ask for a banana if you didn't want one?" he says "I don't know." If I press him he gets upset and continues to insist "I don't know."

He asks for food constantly. Even at times that I know he can't be hungry -- five minutes after lunch, for example. I have to say "Oh but we just ate, let's wait for a bit." and he'll start pleading "But I'm hungry. I'm really hungry."

And I know he isn't.

Asking is a weird thing with Mo. Sometimes he'll ask for a specific toy and when you get it for him he barely looks at it, then asks for something else, then ignores it, then asks for something else.....

I think it's more in the asking than in the getting, if that makes any sense at all.

Let me start by saying I have NO idea how you have any energy for gardening. This little guy demands so much energy I can't imagine having to keep up with him. You have a really tough job and nothing but my complete admiration for sticking to it and for your honesty in seeking assistance.

I'm going to break down what you posted and hope it gives you some insight from an outsider looking at the situation from a fresher point of view.



He may have been plotting, but just as likely he's too impulsive to have done so. The power you have is in deciding which it is. If you believe he was plotting against you the whole time, haven't you given him some undeserved power over you? Does thinking he was "plotting" take away some of the responsibility on your part by making it feel like something you couldn't foresee or predict? Does it make a difference to you if it was impulsive or plotted in the way you percieve and respond to the verbage?

(questions intended to provoke thought, not blame or guilt. PLEASE don't take it as the latter.)



Which is probably what he expects. he's likely testing you. How bad / mean can I be before she leaves me too? I'm a mean little boy (obviously, since others left me it must have been due to me being bad) and I don't know the limit of how far I can push this lady. I really need to know my limits.

Part of the confusion over limits might be stemming from your withdrawing. It's intresting that you say you feel as if you are being verbally abused. That's confusing to a four year old who needs to know limits and that the adult in charge really is in charge. He may be thinking, if a four year old can say something mean and make this woman wither, how can I feel safe with her in charge? At the same time, he's getting power over you by being allowed to define you just like in adult verbally abusive relationships where the abuse is a tool to gain power over.

So, with that in mind, you need to take back your power and set strong limits. More on that in a minute.



(Breaking for new post here so it doesn't get too long.)

Again, much of this is typical 4 year old stuff. I know it's difficult to separate the Mo stuff from the age stuff but the sassing and the lying are very age appropriate. Not that you have to accept it, but you should expect it.

This is a conversation I had with K when she was 4:

K: I need to go to the bathroom.
J: Ok, go ahead.
K: You come too.
J: You want me to come to the bathroom with you?
K: Yes, RIGHT NOW
J: phftt, I don't know why but ok, follows K to the bathroom, leans in doorway.
K: COME IN THE BATHROOM!
J: I'm here.
K: NO!!! IN THE BATHROOM!!
J: takes step inside the bathroom.
K: NOT THERE! HERE!!! IN THIS SQUARE!!!
J: incredulous, thinking you've got to be kidding, says, This is close enough and if you yell at me again, I'm leaving.
K: Finishes her task, walks passed me and goes about her business.


Two years later, M tells me she needs to go to the bathroom, I say go ahead. We did an instant replay right up to the part about a certain square - different house, different bathroom, different square. I remember saying the same response and thinking, Thank God, she'll be five soon!

Sqinney..
you are good. ;-)

I'm sorry you may have said it befoe but I missed it. and I have read nearly everything you have posted on here well almost but anyhow how old is he and how old was he when you got him? I'm asking only cause maybe his bio mom neglected him so much that food was some thing he was never sure of getting. and now he is just tesingt to make sure that it is available. I only say this cause I had a group of kids that was just like that.

Anyhow one of the things that I am working on as well as thinking of other ways other than time out is disciplining myself. What I mean by this is the 3 year old will do some hting and I react as you said BIG. So I have been working on not doing that. I take into concideration all the crazy things this kid may do today and get ready for them by giving myself things I can say so it's not so BIG when it happens. Now let me tell you this kid always surpasses my xpectations lol but it is helping in my reactions. You see I think For him it is that in his famiy it was crazyness all the time, outbursts, cussing, fights, and what not so he comes here and it's quiet and frankly he's board. So he has found that if he does some thing nuts I will react and puts an end to the quiet orginization. Like yesterday wile I was changing the 1 year old and mind you he was supose to be sleeping he made his way to the bathroom and got into the baby bath gel and took it back to bed, undressed and put it all over the place. Usually my reacton woudl of been what do you think you were dooooooing. Not this time I calmly said ohh was that fun? he said YES! I said ok now we have to clean it all up, do you know why you did that. He said Yes I want a visit with my mom. Now I know that If I had reacted BIG he woudln't of told me anything. Any how I cleaned him up and put him in bed and he said that didn't make you mad? So I think I got his number. Now I dont' know if that is any help but for me I think it is partly learning how to diciplin them but first how to disciplin myself

phhttt! You're handling this better than 99% of us would. He's not the average child. Mo has a lot of issues going and they all seem to need to be addressed simultaneously. Not handling this well? Ha! I think you're an iron horse!



Uh, yes, there probably is. Probably hard to see at the time it happens or being so close to the situation, but there likely is a trigger. As was suggested, just you sitting down to the computer while he was eating this morning caused him to sass NOT because he was no longer the center of your attention, but because he wasn't controlling your time and movement. The "pick up your toys" example where you sit with him, keeps him in control of your movements and time.

"Go outside with me" wasn't a request, it was a demand of your time and movement. You responded "In a minute." He said "NOW!" Why? Because you let him make a demand of your time and movement and rather than calling him on it, you said you would oblige his demand in a minute. The "NOW!" was his further attempt to control your time and movement. Why wouldn't he, after all, you gave him room to demand.

Does this make sense? Is this a pattern that you can see in other incidents with the sassing?



Oooh, he had all this control of your time and movement for the first part of the day and then... Where'd she go? I better go get control back.

What he mutters doesn't matter. He knows you hear and respond. Thats what is important to him. You aren't really a big stinking bully, it's just what got your attention. Worked, didn't it!

And, to some degree he was able to define you, because you felt like shrinking / withdrawing. Now, I wouldn't bother calling him on this, because I'm not sure hurting you was his purpose. His purpose was to get your attention and gain control. Adressing the name calling / attempt to define you only gives him more power because he'll know it hurt and... What's he got while you're talking to him about it??? Control of your time and movement.

Instead, I would be asking myself internally why I was allowing it to hurt. He's only a four year old. Why would I be hurt by a four year old calling me a name?

(Likely answer if I were you would be that I'm friggin' emotionally exhausted!)



Me: Mo, pick up your toys or I will throw them away.

Mo: You can't do that! They're mine. Don't threaten me!

Me: (picking up toys and heading to trash.) I'm sorry you chose to not pick them up yourself.

End of conversation.

I'll add:

He's four. He should know the rules about picking up after himself. So, why ask? Why give him an "out" or opportunity to sass? Short, sweet, to the point. Not, why did you do... We know now why he... and he isn't likely to verbalize the reason. Heck, he probably doesn't know the real reason. To him, it may be that he did it because he didn't want to pick up his toys by himself. The real reason is he didn't want to pick the toys up himself because he doesn't want you to go do something else while he's picking up. He's not gonna take the thinking that far.

Bookmarking, but wanted to say that my little girl is a lot like Mo in that timeout doesn't work for her and she does some very impulsive and mean things. So I'm interested in all of the feedback here.

And, is this usually when your attention is turned elsewhere? It's after lunch and you are cleaning up or have gone to sit at the omputer for a minute or are doing something creative with your photography that doesn't involve him?



But, you get up and get it for him, right? Even knowing that he isn't hungry? So, he's controlling your time and movement?




And, you get up and get it for him, right? So, he's controlling your time and movement?



Makes perfect sense. He's controlling your time and movement.

Imagine if your husband did the same thing. How would you react? Would you allow Mr. B to ask for a banana and then let him feed it to the dog? Next time he asks for a banana are you going to get it for him and watch him feed it to the dog? How many times would it take for you to stop getting him a banana? Would you allow Mr. B to ask you to get a tool for him from the shed and then not use it, but then ask you to go get another tool from the shed that he may or may not use? How many times would you be willing to go to the shed?

I used to constantly remind myself that I'm raising husbands and wives. Is that a scarey thought. or what?

Several thoughts here:

1. The attachment disorder is a hairy beast. My best thought on this is that Mo needs a "holding environment." Which basically means that he needs to know that no matter how bad he acts, or what mean thing he says, he will still have a home and have people that love him.

2. You need to "get mad" before you really get mad. Mo sounds good at pushing buttons and making folks lose control. You need to stay in control (although it sounds like you're doing a good job at this).

3. Perhaps Mo needs ways to act out his feelings in ways that don't hurt others or himself. Can you create a place where he's allowed to hit blocks, or kick a pillow?

4. Does he have difficulty identifying his feelings? Saying things like, "you sound frustrated" or "you sound angry" can be really helpful to kids.

As always, you're probably already doing some or all of this.

Hope things improve.

Two more thoughts:

Part of the "holding environment" is reassuring him that you're not going to let him hurt other people.

Also, do the same thing the same way every time. I suspect one of his issues is that consistency, especially consistent discipline, is reassuring to him.

Perfect, absolutely perfect. Works every time. However, I think the situation might change with Mo. Since you've pointed out that he really just wants to control boomerang, what happens after boomerang thinks that she's won? He might just say something like, "OK, then drop them," and at that moment, if boomerang drops the toys for him, he's suddenly controlling her yet again.

Boomerang, this situation might never happen, but I've had to deal with it a few times (and rarely with a good result). The best advice I can give you is to always think about your response before you say or do ANYTHING. You need to recognize what his motives are so that you can say the right thing. For instance, if he told you to drop them, the appropriate response would be something along the lines of "And what are you going to do after (not if, that'll tell him that he's still in control) I drop them?" so that he has a chance (probably with your encouragement in the right direction) to tell you that he'll pick them up. You drop them nicely, watch to make sure he's started to pick them up, and continue on with whatever you were going to do before he distracted you. Obviously, this approach isn't necessary if he simply says, "Ok, then drop them so that I can pick them up," but I doubt that he would reply that way.

Getting into discussions with children when they misbehave
is a no no. Kids appreciate consequences and not lectures.
Then again, what works for one child, might not for another.

Picking up the toys and throwing them into the trash didn't
work for us, as little Jane was never attached to toys, she
couldn't care less.

When she became sassy, I stopped her immediately and said in a stern voice: "I am not spoken to in this manner.
Go to your room and when you have found a polite way to address me, you can come back". That's it! Sometimes she rephrased her initial request, and sometimes she went in her room to pout - either way was fine with me.
But I did a) immediately stop her and b) gave her an option to choose.

If she doesn't clean up her room, I start counting and if
she hasn't started cleaning at count 5, she has to go 15 minutes earlier to bed. Now this works like a charm for us.

Interesting, CJlet was the one to have to leave..

I am way less qualified than anyone here, just listening to all of you in awe. Squinney, you in particular seem to sear through the reverberations to get to insight. I really liked that last bit that Individual quoted, and then expanded on. I always listen to Individual and all of the rest of you. By the way, Individual, it is really good to see you back here. Among other things, I cherish your avatar, blush.

I guess I should say as an aside that my own interest derives from my long time role as understanding aunt who tried hard not to undermine parents, the mother leaving my niece abruptly for six months, twice, before four - as in coming home and she wasn't there.... and the dad being variously thwarted in his efforts for custody. Both of them have thanked me, for different reasons, and the mother died recently. All very complicated and I don't tell this to distract, but I guess to 'splain my interest isn't voyeuristic.

Blimey, Boomer.

Trying to make sense....


Sometimes these kids (remember they feel BAD - and believe, deep down, that you will abandon them, and that getting close hurts and means bad things will happen) get scared with good, intimate times - and will provoke distance (MAKE you go away before you do it anyway - they feel, at least, some agency and control that way). This, I think, explains the bad times after really good times thing. It is usually fairly predictable.

With some kids "wondering" if this is what is going on, or "thinking" (as in "I wonder if you're feeling like we were really close, and then you got worried I might go away" - or just "I won't go away, even if you get mean or angry") can be useful. Or just naming the feeling you see (often these kids haven't learned to recognize and think about their feelings) - "you seem angry/worried/sad", or "you seem to want to push me away after we were so close and had so much fun".

(I don't think he was planning anything, btw! I just think the period of calm was his integrating some stuff, now we have another layer - and, developmentally, he's ready for "sass"!)

You aren't really saying you'll put toys in the trash, are you?


I think "Then, you are choosing not to have these toys for a week" or whatever is, I think, fine. But threatening the trash - no. As you know - don't threaten what you will not follow through on - and throwing them away is way too harsh. And you won't do it.

The anger and shut down you feel is typical with these kids. They evoke horrible emotions. These reflect, or are the mirror image, of what THEY feel. When you have monster feelings, out of synch with the actual situation, this is often your guide that you are experiencing the feelings that Mo is feeling - or that you are experiencing the things he fears you will - shutting down (going away emotionally - I bet his mum was very shut down with him - or very angry), rage, seeing him as more than a child, as PLANNING how he can be mean - these types of feelings are so common with these kids - they can evoke real hatred and feelings that they are almost monstrous, I have seen it in foster carers time and time again. Or just utter helplessness, and that is awful. They can create, expertly, what they fear. They aren't doing it consciously, but they are doing it.


Sass - hmmmmmm.......



Seems you ARE using TO? Even though you disagree with it theoretically for these kids? If you are GONNA use it anyway, then do so much faster, before you are angry. I might re-frame it - "Seems you are needing to be cross and rude - that's ok, we all get cross - but it is my job to help you deal with that, so you don't get hurt, and nobody else does - because in our house we do not hurt anyone. You need to talk to me about how you are feeling, or stop being rude to me, or go to your place where you can be cross." Something like that - if he continues "sassing" (not a word we use!) - boom - straight - and utterly calmly on your behalf - to a brief time out.

Other possibilities.

"If you keep doing that, this happens"

What is "this"?

Sometimes - if a kid has a favourite tv show, I suggest they lose little bits of time of that show, for every five minutes or whatever they keep the rudeness up. He may be a bit young for that? Mebbe not?

Or, if you keep being rude to me, then we will not do this nice thing that we usually do (preferably a pretty close in time nice thing!)

Any consequences for him that you can think of???


With the "bully" etc stuff - I think you explain that you love him, and it is your job to help him learn to behave properly, that is what parents do - and you will do this even if it makes him angry, because you love him. Once or twice is enough for that explanation. After that, the odd, "I know you are angry with me, but I love you, and I will do what is right" while he rages or does whatever he needs to do - and you follow through calmly with whatever consequence you have decided on.


This is just to start you thinking, btw, I probably sound bossy - I don't mean to be - I am just thinking out loud!!!!



Edit:

Oh - the over-reaction stuff. Remember, he feels he is bad - also, his neurology is wired for him to get very emotional fast, and find it hard to calm down. I suspect being told off, however gently, triggers stuff for him - as well as him going through a fairly normal "Make me!!" phase.

The demands and the extra inability to wait - again, he's not been socialised normally - and he will be in a greater than normal state of agitation while waiting. This will come very slowly.

I would certainly say he needs to ask nicely, and you won't come until he does.

You can, I think, recognize that waiting is hard for him (as it is for all kids) - "I know it is hard for you to wait, but I WILL come" - and maybe a cuddle or a gentle pat as you say it? Plus - "gee, you are waiting well, almost there" etc as you do whatever you need to do.


He clearly reacts when your attention is withdrawn (and they know, from several yards away, if you get a phone call, or something like that, and come unerringly, and whine!)

One way of trying to handle this is to stop what you are doing pretty frequently and go to him and give him attention, if he is being ok - then withdraw subtly - like , "I'll be back in a few minutes".


I think remembering that they WILL evoke these strong emotions and understanding it can help. The threatening you with TO (which I think is happening?) seems to me to be annoying, but fine - like he is developing a sense of consequences - even if he is applying them to you.

I think you can respond, sometimes, "I know it makes you angry when I help you learn to behave, but I will still do the right thing for us all, because i love you>" - or something like that.

The message is, basically, that you love him, you are in charge, and you will help him through all these storms and you will not hurt him, or let him hurt you. Kind of like the still, calm eye of the storm.


These rhythms of strong arousal, you staying calm and in charge and sticking to it until he is able to calm, or you can soothe him, is the meat of what he needs.


(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Boomer))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))



God, hope I don't sound like a bloody pain in the bum!

Picture me in our favorite hole in the wall restraurant. The guitarist comes out and he sings a few songs then he strikes a chord and sings "So. So you think you can tell....." and I just close my eyes and sink into my chair and kind of lose it.

And I haven't quite regained it again yet.

And this is just my way of telling you all that oh, how I wish you were here.

I'm reading and digesting and thinking and wanting you to know how much I appreciate your words of advice and support and hoping you'll bear with me till I have my wits about me enough to respond in kind.

Oh Boomer - if even one word helps the teeniest bit, that is more than enough!

We love you, boomer. Now, rest.