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Cheney v. Clinton 2008?

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 09:44 am
Completely agreed.

And Obama isn't currently running for president, so he doesn't even have the responsibility to get his message out. (Which I think Kerry has some culpability for -- while people should have been willing to put in the tiny amount of effort necessary to do the research, I think he also could have done more by way of soundbites/ effective communication.) As a witness to Obama's Illinois campaign, I was very impressed with both his message and his ability to convey it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 09:45 am
Obama's vision thing:

Quote:
STUMPED
Barack Star


by David Kusnet
TNR Online
Post date: 06.20.05

What happens when a prominent political figure who's usually a media star gives a great speech that doesn't get much news coverage? If the pol and the staff are smart, they'll keep using the frame and the phrasings until the news media, political insiders, and, eventually, a national audience start paying attention--and the speech that once was ignored becomes the politician's trademark. That, at any rate, is what happened to Ronald Reagan's case for conservatism, Mario Cuomo's tribute to "the family of America," and John Edwards's populist stump speech.

Much the same fate may await the commencement address Barack Obama delivered at Knox College on June 4. The speech got little coverage outside local papers and has been largely ignored by columnists and talking heads. Perhaps that's because few national journalists or even Chicago-based reporters are inclined to visit Galesburg, Illinois, on a Saturday; or maybe because Obama's speech didn't make news in the conventional sense--it contained no attacks on his adversaries, no announcements of new policy proposals, no slurs on entire segments of society.

All Obama did was make the best case for liberal politics in recent memory, with a panoramic view of American history that made public investment in job training and new technologies sound like the logical descendents of the Civil Rights movement, the New Deal, the Progressive Era, the abolitionists, and the American Revolution.

Unlike most contemporary liberal orators, Obama avoided a numbing list of the government programs he supports, grim indictments of the social injustices he lamented, or cumbersome quotations from the heroes he invoked. Instead, he emphasized two ideas that Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Martin Luther King used but that today's liberals have foolishly ceded to Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush: individual responsibility and American exceptionalism. Both themes are well-suited to graduation speeches, and Obama employed them masterfully.

In the first of two sentences that he repeated throughout his speech, Obama asked the graduates, "What will be your place in history?" He introduced this point with an endearingly self-deprecating anecdote about a reporter who asked him that question shortly after he was sworn in as a freshman senator--one who ranked ninety-ninth in seniority and was assigned "a tiny transition office ... next to the janitor's closet in the basement of the Dirksen Office Building."

But Obama soon made clear that his reference to one's "place in history" was meant to raise several serious points about his audience, their generation, and our nation. In his first venture into American exceptionalism, Obama explained that the United States is unique because individuals can determine their own destinies. "[T]he question of our place in history," he said, "is not answered for us, it's answered by us."

Then, turning from individuals to the nation, Obama offered a second reason why America is decent and distinctive: "We're able to recognize our failings and then rise to meet the challenges of our time." Returning to his original point, he explained that each generation finds its "place in history" by confronting the problems of its era. Telling the stories of how successive American generations abolished slavery, addressed the injustices of the industrial age, defeated economic depression, and fought fascism, Obama repeated his second litany: "We chose to act, and we rose together."

Told this way, American history is an inspiring account of challenges confronted and conquered. Accepting injustices isn't merely immoral; it is passive, cowardly, and un-American--or, as Obama put it more felicitously, "This is not us." Using Reaganesque rhetoric, Obama declared that failing to take action against today's social and economic problems is "not how our story ends" because "America is a land of big dreamers and big hopes."

The difference between Reagan and Obama, of course, is that the Gipper, like George W. Bush today, found heroism only in individual endeavors or in war, not in collective action to solve social problems here at home. By attributing heroic dimensions to the taming of the robber barons, the founding of the public school system, and the organizing of the labor movement, Obama makes progressivism patriotic--and a worthy way for ambitious individuals to find their "place in history."

Still another remarkable point about Obama's speech is that it focused mostly on working Americans without patronizing them as victims or publicly wondering why they vote Republican. Instead, he spoke straightforwardly of "the fact that when you drive by the old Maytag plant around lunchtime, no one walks out anymore." And, gently, he warned the graduates that countries like India and China are producing a new generation of "skilled educated workers" who will be competing with their American counterparts, not just the guys who get laid off from factory jobs.

Presenting what few progressives bother to offer nowadays--a view of the global economy that is neither Pollyanna-ish nor protectionist and a vision of America's future that includes good-paying blue-collar as well as white-collar jobs--Obama called for more job training and retraining and also government investments in new technologies that could give our businesses and workers a competitive advantage. "Just imagine what it could do for a town like Galesburg," he said. "Ten or twenty years down the road that old Maytag plant could reopen its doors as an ethanol refinery that turned corn into fuel. Down the street a biotechnology research lab could open up on the cusp of discovering a cure for cancer."

Just as impressive as what Obama said is what he didn't say. There were no references to his inspiring life story, few indictments of injustices against those he described as "men and women who looked like me," and little else that would make a middle-class, white, or conservative listener tune him out.

Obama's staffers seem to understand how effective such rhetoric can be: They've been emailing the transcript around, and it has been cited by several liberal blogs. Quite likely, Obama will keep using this rhetoric until the press, the political community, and the public pay attention. Here's hoping that Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, and everyone else who's trying to make the case for progressive politics are paying attention, too.

And once more:

Quote:
Better Days

by Noam Scheiber
Only at TNR Online
Post date: 07.28.04

[..] The second thing I thought Obama did much more effectively in that Joliet speech was contrast Democratic priorities--which he portrayed as thoroughly modest and mainstream--with Republican priorities. Here's last night's version:

Quote:
People don't expect--people don't expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all. They know we can do better. And they want that choice.

Here's the Joliet version:

Quote:
One of the things that I have discovered in my years of service and in this campaign--and it has been confirmed again and again, and this is the leap of faith I took when I ran--is that the American people at their core are a decent people. And they get confused some times. They watch Fox News, they listen to Rush Limbaugh. Or they read President Bush's press releases. But mainly they're just busy and they're tired and they're stressed and they're worried about how to raise their families and to pay the bills, so they're not paying attention to politics. But if you sit down with them and you ask, you know, what do you expect out of your government, and what do you expect out of life, it turns out their expectations are extraordinarily modest. They know they've got to work hard, to raise their families. They know that nobody's going to do it for them. But what they do expect is, if they're able and willing, is that they should be able to find a job that pays a living wage. That they shouldn't be bankrupt when they get sick. They should be able to send their child to a school that is comparably funded, and when that child is old enough, and they've done the work, they should be able to go to college, even if they don't come from a wealthy family. And they expect that every senior citizen should be able to retire with some dignity and respect. That's it. That's not a lot.

And when you tell them that we could be delivering those things, with just a slight change in priorities, if we stop just cutting taxes for the wealthy, and try to put that money to expand opportunity. You tell people that there's no reason why working people should be cut out of overtime. When you tell them that we can make better choices, and give a little bit of help to working families all across this country, and we can make sure that every child in America gets a decent shot in life, that if people are vulnerable, somebody's there to give them a hand up, not a handout, then people respond. They want to hear the truth. And they'll even hear it from somebody whose name they don't recognize. ...

Of course, this is all just on the overall vision count. For the full nitty-gritty, you have to go here to find summaries and, linked in, some full plans on what Obama wants on a range of issues.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 09:54 am
nimh wrote:

Its just that it gets kinda annoying to hear - and this happens often enough - one or the other candidate dismissed with a, "well, we don't even know anything about what he actually stands for yet". Ehm, if you dont you should be able to find out easily enough; not having done so doesnt actually say anything about the candidate.


I here ya... but I assure you my intention was not to dismiss him nor get others to do research for me.

Right after the convention we got this thread and I just thought it odd that people were jumping on the bandwagon after one good primetime speech. I have heard his name mentioned a few times since then, but have heard nothing about him. I am just trying to figure out what other people like about him. I'm not asking for written research papers and detailed accounts of all of his voting records, I'm fully capable of finding those myself... I'm asking for peoples opinion is all.
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pngirouard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:00 am
"There's a rumor Dick Cheney may run for president in 2008. If he wins, that would make him the first three-term president since Franklin Roosevelt." --Jay Leno
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pngirouard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:03 am
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/graphics/cheney_puppetmaster.jpg
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pngirouard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:09 am
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:32 am
nimh wrote:
I guess I'm reacting to an echo from the Presidential campaign last year here, where one of the favourite tacks was to go, "yeah but where are Kerry's SOLUTIONS? Does he actually propose anything? What does he stand for?!" Ehm, there were loads of actual proposals there - he may have lacked a vision thing, but no shortage of wonky policy details.


yeah, really.

it boggles the mind how that works. on several occassions, not least of all the debates, i would see and hear the details (as much as can be done in the alotted time) come out of kerry's mouth, only to immediately hear the republicans say "he gave no details". what ? did i just imagine he was talking ???

another thing that i noticed, and i swear this is true; i saw on multiple occassions where a person would say something on fox news and as soon as it went back to their recap, they would report that the person said the exact opposite of what was really spoken.

the dems use similar methods to a point, of course. but the current noise machine really is quite adroit in prestodigitation. "now ya hear it, now ya don't"

it didn't take a whole lot of time browsing thomas.com and such to see that what was said about kerry's voting record by the rnc was a lot of half truths and distortions...in some cases, flat out lies.

we all, regardless of party have to spend the time doing at least some research if we want to get anything outta this stuff but feeling good.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 11:41 am
blatham wrote:
nimh wrote:
Ugh, what a choice :-(


Watch this one. The present Republican organization will do anything and everything to keep McCain out because he will almost certainly cause the party to split apart at the seams with the equally certain consequence of a religious right third party forming up. The goal is some thirty years of Republican dominance along with the further marginalization/destruction of the Democrat party and its alliances and support. A McCain nomination will result in the exact opposite result...a united Democrat party likely to be dominant for a long time. This is very serious business. Loosing the next election (with someone other than McCain running) will be a far more agreeable consequence than what I've described above. If no one appears who has the clear and unambiguous certainty of defeating McCain (while still maintaining this present constellation of interest groups and power structures) then Cheney will absolutely take on this task. He's a rat-bastard of the first order in the company of a lot of other first order rat-bastards and if they can get away with it, they'll murder McCain if they must.


You're right about one point, and only one: the goal is thirty years (or more!) of Republican dominance and marginalization of the Democratic Party. Guess what? Reverse the roles and you have the Democrat's goal as well, or do you think that after a couple of terms in power the Dems would throw an election to preserve the two party system?

Four years is a long time in Washington and the GOP is not about to throw away a chance to remain in power, with all its attendent privileges, just to preserve some sort of ideological purity. All Republican interest groups may not benefit from a McCain presidency, in the way they might benefit from a Cheney presidency, but a whole lot more will than under a Clinton presidency.

The question about McCain is certainly not whether this Conservative Cabal you so often rant about will try and have him killed, but whether or not he can win in the primaries. If McCain is serious about running in 2008 we can expect that he will probably begin appealing to the Christian right more, to improve his chances in the primaries. He doesn't necessarily need this group's glowing endorsement to win, but he won't win if they target him as an enemy.

Cheney is not going to run because the presidency will tax his heart a whole heck of a lot more than does the vice-presidency...and because he has virtually no chance of winning. He may be a darling of Big Business, but not so of the Religious Right, and he has always carried greater unfavorables than Bush who hardly swept aside the competition in 200 or 2004
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dora17
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 12:11 pm
mysteryman wrote:
This is gonna shock some of you,knowing how much of a conservative I am,but my choice for Pres is a Dem.
His name is Evan Bayh,and he is from Indiana.
If he runs,he will have my full support.
I like him,I trust him,and I think he would be good for this country.

On the Repub side,I honestly dont know.
Condi might be a good choice,but since there are really no viable candidates out there yet,I will wait to see who decides to run before I make my choice.


Yay, mysteryman... I wish more people were willing to vote for whichever candidate they really think is the best, even if they have to go to the other party to do it (that goes for Dems too). I think one of the biggest problems with our system is the knee-jerk, vote-for-whoever-my-party-runs attitude. Unfortunately, I don't think either party is willing to run a candidate that is anything other than a clone of the generic firmly-in-the-pocket-of-big-business politician. Either party, any poilitician, same old agenda, same old tell 'em whatever they want to hear routine...
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 12:52 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Cheney is not going to run because the presidency will tax his heart a whole heck of a lot more than does the vice-presidency...and because he has virtually no chance of winning. He may be a darling of Big Business, but not so of the Religious Right, and he has always carried greater unfavorables than Bush who hardly swept aside the competition in 200 or 2004


you made some good points finn. it would be crazy for either party to throw a presidential election to preserve the 2 party system. at least as things lie now. in the future, who knows ? right now i don't really see another party on the horizon that's much of a threat, including mine, the libertarian party. so much so that after 30 years, i'm probably going to change my registration to independent.

i think that the guys meant "murder" as in killing off politically. it wouldn't be the first time that they did it to mccain.

frankly, i don't know why he keeps hanging around with that bunch. they backdoor him every time... Rolling Eyes

you are right about cheney. i can tell ya from experience that if the guy runs for president, he's got a real strong death wish. he can't be that stupid. if he is, i wouldn't advise voting for him. because what you will get in the long run is his v.p. as commander in chief with who knows as vice.

no electing from the hospital bed, please. :wink:
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Aug, 2005 01:10 pm
dora17 wrote:
Yay, mysteryman... I wish more people were willing to vote for whichever candidate they really think is the best, even if they have to go to the other party to do it (that goes for Dems too).


it really is the only way to fly, dora.

i voted republican presidents for the first half of my adult life. even though i disagreed with a lot of the platform, the republicans seemed to be the party that was good with money.

once that was gone, i saw no reason to vote for those guys anymore. bush/quyale campaigning around yowling about family values and religion was a complete turnoff to me and i voted for the other guys. still do.

the republican party has lost all sight of it's original conservative raison d'terre. keepin' an eye on the people's money and not keeping an eye on their private lives.

now it's nothing but "values" laden tripe and spend, spend, spend. and with such an aversion to taxes that replenish the coffers as to be ludicrous. "we want it all, but somebody else is gonna have to pay 'cause i'm sure as hell not. i'm keepin' my money!".

apparently, the core value is greed.

certainly not true of all republican voters, but the boys runnin' the party now seem to have it tattooed on their foreheads.

i don't see that with mccain. or hagle (yet)

at least the dems are honest in that respect. "we're gonna spend a s**tload of cash and send you the bill!".

have to say though, for a "tax and spend liberal", clinton left a tidy sum in the account when he left office, didn't he ?

what happened to all of that cash anyway ??? Shocked Laughing
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