Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

I frankly don't understand why one would want to take the spotlight off the Old Testament and shine it on the New. It is there that we first learn of hell and the final disposition of much of God's special creation.

No longer are we talking about a few smashed heads against the rocks, or 40 children being mauled by a bear, a few rapes, massacres and the like, we are now talking about what God plans to do to those people once they reach the other side. He intends to torture them for eternity. No longer is a crushed skull any consolation, a violated woman means nothing. We learn in the New Testament that there is no end to the retribution this God will exact, and sadly, simply because of an honestly held belief by an otherwise good person.

It's enough to make any kind-hearted person clamor back to the Old Testament to escape the horror and insanity that lurks in the pages of the New.

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tycoon wrote:

I frankly don't understand why one would want to take the spotlight off the Old Testament and shine it on the New. It is there that we first learn of hell and the final disposition of much of God's special creation.

No longer are we talking about a few smashed heads against the rocks, or 40 children being mauled by a bear, a few rapes, massacres and the like, we are now talking about what God plans to do to those people once they reach the other side. He intends to torture them for eternity. No longer is a crushed skull any consolation, a violated woman means nothing. We learn in the New Testament that there is no end to the retribution this God will exact, and sadly, simply because of an honestly held belief by an otherwise good person.

It's enough to make any kind-hearted person clamor back to the Old Testament to escape the horror and insanity that lurks in the pages of the New.

I don't recall a single thing in the New Testament that promises we will be tortured in heaven. I really don't.

Just as there are punishments for breaking the laws of man, there are punishments for breaking the laws of God. God provided us salvation from that punishment. It is up to us whether to accept it or not. It is given freely, all we need do is accept it.

I submit the only torture and suffering that will be going on will be the torturing and suffering of those that won't be in heaven. But, IT IS THEIR CHOICE, THEIR FREE WILL. (Caps just for emphasis).

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Momma Angel,

I've thought much about Christianity, it has been a passion of mine my entire adult life. I have gone from being a born-again Christian to an atheist. It has not been an easy trip, but it has been an honest one.

In your opinion, do you think I deserve to burn in hell for an eternity for my hard-fought belief?

For your consideration in answering, I am a productive member of society, pay my bills, and love my wife and kids.

I'll await your answer.

Regards

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Intrepid wrote:

mesquite wrote:
real life wrote:
Where did the matter and energy involved in this 'gigantic explosion' come from?

It came from the previous collapsing universe.

Where did the previous collapsing universe come from?

It came from the previous exploding universe, of course Intrepid.

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tycoon wrote:

Momma Angel,

I've thought much about Christianity, it has been a passion of mine my entire adult life. I have gone from being a born-again Christian to an atheist. It has not been an easy trip, but it has been an honest one.

In your opinion, do you think I deserve to burn in hell for an eternity for my hard-fought belief?

For your consideration in answering, I am a productive member of society, pay my bills, and love my wife and kids.

I'll await your answer.

Regards

tycoon,

I cannot answer that question for you tycoon. It is not within my authority to do so. But speaking for myself, yes. I do deserve that. I do deserve to spend eternity in hell. There is nothing I can do on this earth that would be good enough for me to deserve to go to heaven. I cannot earn my way into heaven by being good. That gift has been given to me by God through His Son, my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

So tycoon, I can only tell you what I deserve in my life. I cannot tell you what you deserve. That is up to God to do.

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Momma Angel, you don't deserve to go to hell. I don't either.

But according to the New Testament, you--the wheat--will be separated from me--the chaff--simply because of our differing beliefs, merely what we believe to be the truth. It just won't do. I reject it. You're a good enough person to understand the unjustness of the scheme.

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tycoon wrote:

Momma Angel, you don't deserve to go to hell. I don't either.

But according to the New Testament, you--the wheat--will be separated from me--the chaff--simply because of our differing beliefs, merely what we believe to be the truth. It just won't do. I reject it. You're a good enough person to understand the unjustness of the scheme.

tycoon,

I appreciate your sentiment, I really do. But, you can't tell me I don't deserve to spend eternity in hell. Only God can do that.

Being good enough has nothing in the world to do with salvation, nothing at all.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Well, we all know what they mean by "biblical principles." How scary!

"Biblical principles" teach someone "how" to understand the Bible in light of their own misconceptions. Rather than being forced to some ideology one can be taught "how" to understand themselves... Without Biblical principles there would be total chaos. God is not the "author" of confusion... The chaos arises when people do not regard the principles and they go off on their own interpretation. As you have done... This is why you are so confused about the Bible and it's true meaning. This is where your "contradictions" that you like to purport are from. A lack of principles leads to contradictions and confusion. People magnify the uncertain above the clear and irrefutable.
This is when they break the first biblical principle... THAT WE UNDERSTAND THE DIFFICULT PASSAGES IN LIGHT OF THE CLEAR ONES...

Another Biblical principle... THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF.

How does it interpret itself? That leads to another biblical principle... THE BIBLE INTERPRETS ITSELF IN THE VERSE, IN THE CONTEXT, OR WHERE A WORD HAS BEEN USED BEFORE. This is where study helps...

Another Biblical principle... THE FIRST USAGE OF A WORD IN THE BIBLE USUALLY SETS THE MEANING THROUGHOUT.

Another principle... WHAT IS THE BIBLE TRYING TO SAY?... WHAT IS IT NOT SAYING?

Another... WHAT DID THIS MEAN TO THEM THEN? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO US TODAY?

Another Biblical principle... FIGURES OF SPEECH USUALLY EMPHASIZE WHAT GOD HAS TO SAY...

Biblical principles are keys that unlock difficult passages and signposts that point the biblical researcher in the right direction...

Another biblical principle. THE BIBLE NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD IN LIGHT OF MANNERISMS AND CUSTOMS OF THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM IT IS ADDRESSED.

Another biblical principle. TO WHOM IS THE WORD ADDRESSED? (it is usually addressed to one of these three... Jew, Gentile or the church of God... that does make a big difference and evaporates most all "contradictions").

Another principle... THINGS SIMILAR ARE NOT IDENTICAL.
Another related biblical principle is SCRIPTURE BUILDUP. (If two stories only add to each other then they are the same incident, but if the details contradict each other in any particular way they are different occurrences.)

If any two biblical researchers apply these simple principles they will arrive the the same doctrine...

One of the greatest biblical principles of them all is THE BIBLE IS INHERENTLY AND INERRANT ACCURATE. It fits like a hand in a glove and has a mathematical accuracy and a scientific precision... That is, when you apply the biblical principles... It is when people do not trust the word of God and the do not treat it with integrity that they begin to make their own "interpretations" and error and contradiction is the result.

THE ONLY CONTRADICTION IN THE BIBLE IS IN OUR UNDERSTANDING...

A story about quarks... A physicist friend told me this. He said that scientists argued for years over the existence of "quarks".. There were adamant scholars on both sides. Quarks cannot be seen. So most scientists disbelieved in them altogether. How typical... Is this a principle? IF YOU CANNOT SEE IT IT IS NOT THERE? Well some scientists persevered and made another principle. IF WE CANNOT SEE IT WE WILL "BELIEVE" THEY ARE THERE. You have to believe something is there to honestly exert the effort in trying to understand it. So they said, IF WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SEE THEM, MAYBE WE CAN REGISTER THE EFFECTS OF THEM? So, they set about poking these quarks with electrons and measuring the entropy that resulted and over many long calculations and experiments the quarks that are now accepted generally by all physicists emerged... We cannot see them but we know they exist.

Thus this physicist then went on to say. I can see that the truth of the Bible is like this. You have to poke and prod at it. You have to believe the message is somewhere within it. And after careful measurement and observation of it's constituents over time the inherent, inerrant picture will emerge... I had been witnessing to my physicist friend for a couple of years trying to get him to believe in the Bible/God and when he realized how the Bible related to his studies in quarks he eventually told me this story in tears. At that moment he finally saw what I had already found myself. He has passed away but his heartfelt testimony and his "principle" still remains with me...

Principles are not scary... They show us HOW to understand... I would rather understand myself than learn from someone else's "interpretation"...

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Because you brought it up I went to Michael Farris' website... I differ quite a bit from his "statement of faith" First of all I do not believe Jesus was "God in the flesh" at all... So he is just another theologian that goes along with the crowd and has sparse understanding on his own about what the Bible really says and means... 1+1+1 = 3 not 1 and three Gods is idolatry... That is what I think...

Also the "Baptists" believe that when you sin you are suddenly not born again anymore... They have little understanding that once you are "born" you cannot change your father... We are born of incorruptible spiritual SEED. And nothing can change or alter that seed... Also I do not believe water is a necessary component in baptism at all. We are born again by "holy spirit and fire" not water... This is what the Bible says... and I will take the clarity of the Bible over the uncertainty and contradiction of their "interpretations" and traditions... I am sure they are probably kind loving Christians but their understanding of the scriptures leaves MUCH to be desired...

For these reasons I believe the church has no business in the state... Yet, I still believe the state is UNDER (not equal to, or above) God and should act as a protector of religious diversity and "justice" for all...

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Whoa Rex! I don't know about other Baptists, but this Baptist does not believe that when you sin you are suddenly not born again anymore!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Whoa Rex! I don't know about other Baptists, but this Baptist does not believe that when you sin you are suddenly not born again anymore!

In all due respect I was told this by a Baptist.. And I have talked with many of them over the years... So if they have changed their position on this I applaud them for having more of a dynamic church than they used to have, and the ability to change when they are not in alignment with "the word"...

I remember the button tied to a string analogy in a glass of water... When you sin, boop, out comes the button... So if the baptists have now realized the seed of the spirit is permanent "sonship" then they have certainly improved on their understanding of the word of God. Yet I will say, I knew of the sonship aspects of the spiritual new "birth" LONG before they (Baptists) were willing to concede... I wonder also if you are an anomaly in the Baptist "faith" and if you really represent their own actual doctrinal position...

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RexRed wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Whoa Rex! I don't know about other Baptists, but this Baptist does not believe that when you sin you are suddenly not born again anymore!

In all due respect I was told this by a Baptist.. And I have talked with many of them over the years... So if they have changed their position on this I applaud them for having more of a dynamic church than they used to have, and the ability to change when they are not in alignment with "the word"...

I remember the button tied to a string analogy in a glass of water... When you sin, boop, out comes the button... So if the baptists have now realized the seed of the spirit is permanent "sonship" then they have certainly improved on their understanding of the word of God. Yet I will say, I knew of the sonship aspects of the spiritual new "birth" LONG before they (baptists) were willing to concede... I wonder also if you are an anomaly in the baptist "faith" and if you really represent their own actual doctrinal position...

I honestly have never even heard of any Baptists believing that. I am not saying none do. I just have never heard it before.

As for your second paragraph's last sentence, I can only hope and pray that I am! But, I'm like 100% sure I'm not. LOL

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Momma Angel wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Whoa Rex! I don't know about other Baptists, but this Baptist does not believe that when you sin you are suddenly not born again anymore!

In all due respect I was told this by a Baptist.. And I have talked with many of them over the years... So if they have changed their position on this I applaud them for having more of a dynamic church than they used to have, and the ability to change when they are not in alignment with "the word"...

I remember the button tied to a string analogy in a glass of water... When you sin, boop, out comes the button... So if the baptists have now realized the seed of the spirit is permanent "sonship" then they have certainly improved on their understanding of the word of God. Yet I will say, I knew of the sonship aspects of the spiritual new "birth" LONG before they (baptists) were willing to concede... I wonder also if you are an anomaly in the baptist "faith" and if you really represent their own actual doctrinal position...

I honestly have never even heard of any Baptists believing that. I am not saying none do. I just have never heard it before.

As for your second paragraph's last sentence, I can only hope and pray that I am! But, I'm like 100% sure I'm not. LOL

I find being tethered to "the word" is much more preferable than to a denomination... Smile

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Actually, I rarely call myself anything but a Christian. I was brought up in the Baptist demonination though.

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mesquite wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
real life wrote:
Where did the matter and energy involved in this 'gigantic explosion' come from?

It came from the previous collapsing universe.

Where did the previous collapsing universe come from?

It came from the previous exploding universe, of course Intrepid.

And you have evidence of this previous universe, and the events you describe concerning it? Tell us about how you know this.

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There are some fundamentalists, including some obscure Baptist sects with tiny memberships, who do teach that once you backslide you are out of grace. This is not the teaching of the Bible, however, and not the belief of mainstream Christians including mainstream Baptists.

The whole problem with the nonreligious and the anti-religious is they tend to look to these obscure groups, the distinct minority, and hold them up as proof of what Christians believe or even the product of what the Bible teaches.

There's no way around it that people of faith have their weirdos and misfits and some of them call themselves Christian. It is as silly to lump all Christians into that group as it is to lump all nonbelievers in with their screwball fringe.

Still, there are those here who try. Oh my how they try.

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Foxfyre wrote:

There are some fundamentalists, including some obscure Baptist sects with tiny memberships, who do teach that once you backslide you are out of grace. This is not the teaching of the Bible, however, and not the belief of mainstream Christians including mainstream Baptists.

The whole problem with the nonreligious and the anti-religious is they tend to look to these obscure groups, the distinct minority, and hold them up as proof of what Christians believe or even the product of what the Bible teaches.

There's no way around it that people of faith have their weirdos and misfits and some of them call themselves Christian. It is as silly to lump all Christians into that group as it is to lump all nonbelievers in with their screwball fringe.

Still, there are those here who try. Oh my how they try.

I personally think that people who are lost in that "fringe" to be both a priority to God and "the church"... at least that is the attitude that I pursue. Although sometimes it takes "tough love" to bring them to the point of actually thinking for themselves... I believe that God can and does provide the unique guidance in these situations...

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RexRed wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
There are some fundamentalists, including some obscure Baptist sects with tiny memberships, who do teach that once you backslide you are out of grace. This is not the teaching of the Bible, however, and not the belief of mainstream Christians including mainstream Baptists.

The whole problem with the nonreligious and the anti-religious is they tend to look to these obscure groups, the distinct minority, and hold them up as proof of what Christians believe or even the product of what the Bible teaches.

There's no way around it that people of faith have their weirdos and misfits and some of them call themselves Christian. It is as silly to lump all Christians into that group as it is to lump all nonbelievers in with their screwball fringe.

Still, there are those here who try. Oh my how they try.

I personally think that people who are lost in that "fringe" to be both a priority to God and "the church"... at least that is the attitude that I pursue. Although sometimes it takes "tough love" to bring them to the point of actually thinking for themselves... I believe that God can and does provide the unique guidance in these situations...

No argument from me there Rex. Just from what I have read of your posts in this thread, I think you and I hold very different perspectives on various issues and even though there is considerable agreement between Reallife, Intrepid, and MommaAngel et al, I would guess that we each hold a point of view or belief that is not universally shared by the others. This is okay because we are all imperfect beings, and not one of us has the whole big picture the way it actually is.

And yet I agree, God allows for all our imperfections, various beliefs and nonbeliefs and loves us all just the same. And it is the inevitable product of Christianity that causes us to want others to know that.

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Foxfyre wrote:

The whole problem with the nonreligious and the anti-religious is they tend to look to these obscure groups, the distinct minority, and hold them up as proof of what Christians believe or even the product of what the Bible teaches.

There's no way around it that people of faith have their weirdos and misfits and some of them call themselves Christian. It is as silly to lump all Christians into that group as it is to lump all nonbelievers in with their screwball fringe.

Like you just did in your first paragraph? Rolling Eyes

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Just like I did what?

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Should we handle victory the way the Christian god decrees?

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