Well I can see that you are going to continue to try to play debating tricks....so I will have to deal with this in a different way.
We will take one item at a time.
I will restate my claim.
The god of the Bible is jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous and barbaric.
Quote:I: The problem for you is this - if the Christian god of the Bible is *real* - that is, if the god described in the very book you are relying on to "make your case" is exactly as he is described in the *entire* Bible, then you have absolutely no case whatsoever.
There is no logical reason to accept any of that...and apparently has been asserted in an attempt to unnecessarily complicate the discussion.
If there are passages that show the god to be jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous, and/or barbaric...
...the case is made.
Pretending that the fact we are talking about a character contained in the Bible places some special requirements on the proofs in this regard is self-serving and gratuitous.
I have, on dozens upon dozens of occasions acknowledged that there are more pages in the Bible devoted to fawning and groveling before this barbaric monster...just as there are plenty of people in this forum who are terrified of it and who fawn and grovel.
The Bible is essentially 200 pages (the first five books) describing one of the most disgusting gods ever invented by the human mind. That is followed up by over 1000 pages of people falling all over themselves to tell this god how wonderful, understanding, loving, and kind it is.
It is a joke.
Quote:Your argument depends entirely on taking certain elements of the Bible and pointing to them from within a set of opinions that are unbiblical. Your claims make perfect sense (and are very logical, mind you) from within your way of looking at things. However, you are trying to make a point about the god of the Bible, which means you must operate from within the confines of what is revealed in the Bible.
You may not agree with this, but I am willing to take this discussion further in explaining why this is so.
I not only "do not agree with this"...I most emphatically disagree with it.
If you have some arguments which you think should cause me to change my mind on this...please present them...and we can argue them before proceeding. As for now...I reject this notion out-of-hand...and consider it to be, as I said earlier, gratuitous and self-serving.
I promise I will respond to all the other elements of your post after we've handled this.
Quote:Well I can see that you are going to continue to try to play debating tricks....so I will have to deal with this in a different way.
We will take one item at a time.
I will restate my claim.
The god of the Bible is jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous and barbaric.
I'm cutting you some slack here regarding your continuing claim that I am somehow employing *tricks*, because I really don't think you see the problem you face.
However, realize the quality of this discussion is indirectly proportional to the amount of rhetoric it becomes laced with. The more you interject unwarranted personal attacks against Christians, or against my particular debate style, the more I will spend time pointing this out, and possibly even responding in kind.
At that point, we will be spending most of our effort responding to each other's comments about the discussion we are having, rather than actually having the discussion.
Something to think about, that's all.
When you argue against a Christian, you can't expect to get away with arguing against single elements of what they believe, anymore than a Christian could argue against single elements of what *you* believe.
Christianity is systematic - it is a collection of beliefs that stand or fall together as one. If you expect the Christian to consider your argument that their god is murderous, then you must either show this to be *objectively* true, or you must show it to be true from within their own set of beliefs.
Now, you can certainly do what you want. You can argue against this god from within your standard of what constitutes murder, etc - but don't expect many Christians to be impacted by your argument. What makes this god seem rational to Christians is that they feel the Bible *as a whole* presents a reasonable concept to believe in. And so if you want to get any Christian to listen to you, you can't expect to take pot shots at bits and pieces of their beliefs.
I will state it again -
1) You must objectively show that this god is a murder or
2) You must show that this god is a murder, considering the Christians interpretation of the Bible as a whole
If you don't do either of these, then you are simply left with "it is my opinion that your god is a murderer", and I don't think too many Christians are interested in your opinion, unless there is something else behind it.
Quote:If there are passages that show the god to be jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous, and/or barbaric...
...the case is made.
I agree, Frank - if such passages *show* this god to be of a certain type, then the case is indeed made. But we have to talk about what it means to *show* this god to be anything at all.
I have already agreed that he wouldn't stand up to a humanistic set of standards, which is (in my opinion) exactly what you are judging him against. But I guess I would simply say "so what"?
To show that the god of the Bible is murderous according to your standard of murder simply means this god is murderous according to your standard. But when you remove that qualification and simply state that "god is murderous", you take upon yourself a whole new burden of proof. Now don't think I am changing the definition of murder or anything like that - I am using the definition I mentioned before, "unlawful killing". The question is, what laws is this god answerable to?
Additionally, what exactly do you *mean* when you claim "god is murderous"? Do you mean it is objectively demonstrable? Do you mean it is demonstrable according to your particular standard, or the Christians? Maybe if you answer this specific question we can have a more productive exchange.
Quote:Pretending that the fact we are talking about a character contained in the Bible places some special requirements on the proofs in this regard is self-serving and gratuitous.
I have, on dozens upon dozens of occasions acknowledged that there are more pages in the Bible devoted to fawning and groveling before this barbaric monster...just as there are plenty of people in this forum who are terrified of it and who fawn and grovel.
The Bible is essentially 200 pages (the first five books) describing one of the most disgusting gods ever invented by the human mind. That is followed up by over 1000 pages of people falling all over themselves to tell this god how wonderful, understanding, loving, and kind it is.
It is a joke.
There is nothing special about me suggesting that you consider everything that Christians have to say about this god before drawing judgment. I would think that is something you would do out of consideration for their beliefs, and I expect it is something you would expect of them as well.
BTW, I think the last couple paragraphs above are a perfect example of the rhetoric I mentioned above to you.
Quote:Quote:Your argument depends entirely on taking certain elements of the Bible and pointing to them from within a set of opinions that are unbiblical. Your claims make perfect sense (and are very logical, mind you) from within your way of looking at things. However, you are trying to make a point about the god of the Bible, which means you must operate from within the confines of what is revealed in the Bible.
You may not agree with this, but I am willing to take this discussion further in explaining why this is so.
I not only "do not agree with this"...I most emphatically disagree with it.
If you have some arguments which you think should cause me to change my mind on this...please present them...and we can argue them before proceeding. As for now...I reject this notion out-of-hand...and consider it to be, as I said earlier, gratuitous and self-serving.
Well just so you know - I'm not so interested in changing your mind, as I am interested in telling the truth of the matter.
Asserting that the god of the Bible is a murderer places the burden squarely in your lap to show that *this god* is what you say he is. It doesn't give you the right to claim *this god* is actually "a god who's attributes I will pick and choose at will in order to make my point", because that is by no means *this god*.
Let me give an example.
Let's say our discussion is about a guy who *you* claim is breaking the law by driving in excess of the speed limit. Now you make this claim to a group of people who think the world of this fella. They say to you "hang on now Frank, there is more to this guy than meets the eye!" And you say "I don't care about any other claims you make about him, other than this one claim - that he drove 95 mph in a 65 mph zone last Tuesday. He has clearly broken the law!"
You claim that since he drove 95 in a 65, and since the speed limit is 65 then it is oh so obvious (and the logical conclusion to boot) that this man is guilty of breaking the law.
It is at this point that this group of people drops the bomb. "Frank, this guy is a police officer, and he was pursuing a bank robber on the interstate last Tuesday. That is the reason he was driving as fast as he was. He was justified in doing what he did, based on his qualifications, his position of authority, and the circumstances at hand."
See the problem here?
Quote:I promise I will respond to all the other elements of your post after we've handled this.
Sounds good to me!
Implicator wrote:Quote:Well I can see that you are going to continue to try to play debating tricks....so I will have to deal with this in a different way.
We will take one item at a time.
I will restate my claim.
The god of the Bible is jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous and barbaric.
I'm cutting you some slack here regarding your continuing claim that I am somehow employing *tricks*, because I really don't think you see the problem you face.
One...don't bother "cutting me any slack." I am more than able to handle anything you can dish out.
Two...your suggestion that I do not see the problem I face...is another of those tricks. Why don't you stop the nonsense?
Quote:However, realize the quality of this discussion is indirectly proportional to the amount of rhetoric it becomes laced with. The more you interject unwarranted personal attacks against Christians, or against my particular debate style, the more I will spend time pointing this out, and possibly even responding in kind.
Be my guest. I have not engaged in "unwarranted personal attacks" with you...or with any Christians...and your charges that I have are themselves "unwarranted personal attacks" against me. Why don't you stop the nonsense?
Quote:At that point, we will be spending most of our effort responding to each other's comments about the discussion we are having, rather than actually having the discussion.
Something to think about, that's all.
I've thought about it. Now...stop the nonsense.
Quote:
When you argue against a Christian, you can't expect to get away with arguing against single elements of what they believe, anymore than a Christian could argue against single elements of what *you* believe.
I do not do "believing"...so I don't have that problem.
Quote:Christianity is systematic - it is a collection of beliefs that stand or fall together as one. If you expect the Christian to consider your argument that their god is murderous, then you must either show this to be *objectively* true, or you must show it to be true from within their own set of beliefs.
That is absolute baloney...pure self-serving pap.
Quote:Now, you can certainly do what you want. You can argue against this god from within your standard of what constitutes murder, etc - but don't expect many Christians to be impacted by your argument. What makes this god seem rational to Christians is that they feel the Bible *as a whole* presents a reasonable concept to believe in. And so if you want to get any Christian to listen to you, you can't expect to take pot shots at bits and pieces of their beliefs.
I expect very little from Christians in the way of intelligent, reasonable, logical discussion and I seldom am disappointed.
What they attempt to do is to do what you are attempting here. They pretend there is some greater element that has to be considered...and that the descriptions of the god of the Bible has to be placed in the greater context of the frightened groveling that constitutes the greater part of the Bible.
I ain't gonna do it...and I am going to laugh at the suggestion that it has to be done in order to be logical.
Quote:I will state it again -
1) You must objectively show that this god is a murder or
2) You must show that this god is a murder, considering the Christians interpretation of the Bible as a whole
If you don't do either of these, then you are simply left with "it is my opinion that your god is a murderer", and I don't think too many Christians are interested in your opinion, unless there is something else behind it.
Well...my "opinion" is that the god is a work of fiction.
It is not my opinion that the god described in the Bible is a jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous and barbarian. That is something I KNOW. All you have to do is to read the book...and it becomes apparent. (Unless you hide your head in the sand of denial.)
Quote:Quote:If there are passages that show the god to be jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, excessive, quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive, tyrannical, murderous, and/or barbaric...
...the case is made.
I agree, Frank - if such passages *show* this god to be of a certain type, then the case is indeed made. But we have to talk about what it means to *show* this god to be anything at all.
I have already agreed that he wouldn't stand up to a humanistic set of standards, which is (in my opinion) exactly what you are judging him against. But I guess I would simply say "so what"?
To show that the god of the Bible is murderous according to your standard of murder simply means this god is murderous according to your standard. But when you remove that qualification and simply state that "god is murderous", you take upon yourself a whole new burden of proof. Now don't think I am changing the definition of murder or anything like that - I am using the definition I mentioned before, "unlawful killing". The question is, what laws is this god answerable to?
I will continue to judge the god against human standards.
If you want to say that the Bible tells us that the god is not subject to that kind of judgment...and therefore it is unreasonable or illogical to do so...
..that is your right.
Hey...anything for a laugh.
And all that particular argument is worth...is a bunch of laughter.
Quote:Additionally, what exactly do you *mean* when you claim "god is murderous"? Do you mean it is objectively demonstrable? Do you mean it is demonstrable according to your particular standard, or the Christians? Maybe if you answer this specific question we can have a more productive exchange.
I think we both know what I am saying...and you are attempting to cloud things with this kind of dodge.
You know what I mean by "jealous"...by vindictive...by vengeful...by petty...by excessive...by quick-to-anger slow-to-forgive by tyrannical...and by barbaric. And you know what I mean by murderous.
But...you want to play this game...and I am enjoying how it is going...so let's continue.
Quote:
Quote:Pretending that the fact we are talking about a character contained in the Bible places some special requirements on the proofs in this regard is self-serving and gratuitous.
I have, on dozens upon dozens of occasions acknowledged that there are more pages in the Bible devoted to fawning and groveling before this barbaric monster...just as there are plenty of people in this forum who are terrified of it and who fawn and grovel.
The Bible is essentially 200 pages (the first five books) describing one of the most disgusting gods ever invented by the human mind. That is followed up by over 1000 pages of people falling all over themselves to tell this god how wonderful, understanding, loving, and kind it is.
It is a joke.
There is nothing special about me suggesting that you consider everything that Christians have to say about this god before drawing judgment. I would think that is something you would do out of consideration for their beliefs, and I expect it is something you would expect of them as well.
Not sure of what you mean by all this...but more than likely, you will explain at some point. I can wait.
Quote:
Quote:Quote:Your argument depends entirely on taking certain elements of the Bible and pointing to them from within a set of opinions that are unbiblical. Your claims make perfect sense (and are very logical, mind you) from within your way of looking at things. However, you are trying to make a point about the god of the Bible, which means you must operate from within the confines of what is revealed in the Bible.
You may not agree with this, but I am willing to take this discussion further in explaining why this is so.
I not only "do not agree with this"...I most emphatically disagree with it.
If you have some arguments which you think should cause me to change my mind on this...please present them...and we can argue them before proceeding. As for now...I reject this notion out-of-hand...and consider it to be, as I said earlier, gratuitous and self-serving.
Well just so you know - I'm not so interested in changing your mind, as I am interested in telling the truth of the matter.
Well...I hope you get about doing that soon. So far...you seem to be engaging in self-serving, illogical prating.
Quote:
Asserting that the god of the Bible is a murderer places the burden squarely in your lap to show that *this god* is what you say he is. It doesn't give you the right to claim *this god* is actually "a god who's attributes I will pick and choose at will in order to make my point", because that is by no means *this god*.
Let me give an example.
Let's say our discussion is about a guy who *you* claim is breaking the law by driving in excess of the speed limit. Now you make this claim to a group of people who think the world of this fella. They say to you "hang on now Frank, there is more to this guy than meets the eye!" And you say "I don't care about any other claims you make about him, other than this one claim - that he drove 95 mph in a 65 mph zone last Tuesday. He has clearly broken the law!"
You claim that since he drove 95 in a 65, and since the speed limit is 65 then it is oh so obvious (and the logical conclusion to boot) that this man is guilty of breaking the law.
It is at this point that this group of people drops the bomb. "Frank, this guy is a police officer, and he was pursuing a bank robber on the interstate last Tuesday. That is the reason he was driving as fast as he was. He was justified in doing what he did, based on his qualifications, his position of authority, and the circumstances at hand."
See the problem here?
Yeah. Your analogy is defective...and you are trying to pass it off as not being so.
The god is all of the things I have said...and I have offered dozens and dozens of passages that show that to be the case.
I'm not going to jump through hoops for you, Implicator.
If you cannot see the essentials here...you are blind by election.
Quote:
Quote:I promise I will respond to all the other elements of your post after we've handled this.
Sounds good to me!
I'm here for you, Implicator. Never worry that I will leave.
Implicator,
I agree that the charge of 'murderous' against the God of the Bible is problematic. I could say God commanded 'Thou shalt not kill', but then he didn't say 'I shouldn't kill', so that only makes him a hypocrit, not a murderer.
However, the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vainity, intolerance, etc. do seem to hold, based on the passages Frank has cited.
You may say that, taking the Bible as a whole, there is nothing wrong with god being vengeful, jealous, quick-to-anger, slow-to-forgive, vain, intolerant, etc., since he's God and he can be whatever he likes, but the charges themselves still seem to hold.
1) You must objectively show that this god is a murderer or
2) You must show that this god is a murderer, considering the Christian's interpretations of the Bible as a whole
Unless you do one of the two of these, you are left with opinion - nothing more, nothing less.
Let us do a bit of supposing here...just for the sake of argument.
Let us suppose that a human (A) wanted something done by another human (B)...something that (A) could easily accomplish on his own without the need for compliance or concessions from (B).
But for some reason or reasons unspecified, (A) wants (B) to do it...despite the fact that (A) could easily do it without (B's) help or aquiescence.
Let us further suppose that (A) has the power to make it very difficult for (B) to do the thing...in fact, that(A) could PREVENT (B) from doing it...and that (A) does exactly that...PREVENTS (B) from doing what ostensibly (A) wants (B) to do.
Let us suppose that (A) decides that since (B) has not done what (A) wants him to do...he feels free to kill thousands of innocent people in order to force (B) to do it. (All this despite the fact that (A) has actively prevented (B) from complying before the slaughter.)
And finally....let us suppose that (A) does exactly that...kills thousands of innocent people in order to compell (B) to comply.
Now...by any standard of the word "murder"...this would be murder. It would be a lot more than that..but for certain, it would be "murder."
Well...dj...the story contained in Exodus is essentially of the god of the Bible...a god that had just made the earth, the sun, the other 200+ billions of suns in our galaxy and the hundreds of billions of other galaxies we know of...
...doing just that.
Any god that could create a universe could easily get the Hebrews out of captivity without torturing the people of Egypt with all those plagues...and the wonton slaughter of the first born. The god bragged that it was making Pharaoh obdurate and obstinate...so that Pharaoh would not release the Hebrews. And the god, after this set up...slaughtered all the Egyptian first born.
I charge that the god is a murderer.
I am not about to allow Implicator to assert that I cannot logically charge the god of the Bible with murder because the Bible defines the god as not-able-to-be-blamed.
Implicator's argument on this issue is at best specious...and at worst, much, much more.
I appreciate the fact that you see some merit to it (by finding my position to be problematic)...but I would ask you to look it over more carefully...and to reconsider your position.
And BTW, I am only addressing your claim that this god is a murderer. I can just as easily address the remainder of your claims, and will be happy to do so when we are done with this claim.
djbt wrote:Implicator,
I agree that the charge of 'murderous' against the God of the Bible is problematic. I could say God commanded 'Thou shalt not kill', but then he didn't say 'I shouldn't kill', so that only makes him a hypocrit, not a murderer.
However, the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vainity, intolerance, etc. do seem to hold, based on the passages Frank has cited.
You may say that, taking the Bible as a whole, there is nothing wrong with god being vengeful, jealous, quick-to-anger, slow-to-forgive, vain, intolerant, etc., since he's God and he can be whatever he likes, but the charges themselves still seem to hold.
Is it hypocritical for a police offer to tell me to stop exceeding the speed limit, and then go and do it himself in the line of duty?
As to the other claims, some of them *do* stick (like jealousy, for instance, specifically because this god claims that he is jealous), I have decided to put them on hold, however. We are consuming more than enough bandwidth dealing with just murder
[Please, let's just move on from murder. I accept that, because of the legal aspect of the word 'murder', the use of that word is problematic. Can we agree God is a serial killer and move on? If there were a word for 'unnecessary, cruel killing' that didn't have a legal aspect, I'm sure Frank would be happy to use that instead. You've made your point on the problem with the use of the word murder, and I, at least, have conceded it, can we now move on to the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vanity, intolerance, serial killing, etc.?
...the god is immune from such designations based on its unique status as god.
Ir can do what it wants...and humans cannot judge it...or what is being done.
1) You must objectively show that this god is a murderer or
2) You must show that this god is a murderer, considering the Christian's interpretations of the Bible as a whole
Well...such an unseemly tirade...and such a pathetic attempt to pass it off as something I have demanded. What a laugh. If you want to be rude, Implicator...have the guts to be rude because you want to be...not because bad ole Frank is making you rude.
In any case, let's go to the specifics:
Quote:1) You must objectively show that this god is a murderer or
2) You must show that this god is a murderer, considering the Christian's interpretations of the Bible as a whole
Unless you do one of the two of these, you are left with opinion - nothing more, nothing less.
Okay.
First, I will quote the entire of my last post:
Let us do a bit of supposing here...just for the sake of argument.
Let us suppose that a human (A) wanted something done by another human (B)...something that (A) could easily accomplish on his own without the need for compliance or concessions from (B).
But for some reason or reasons unspecified, (A) wants (B) to do it...despite the fact that (A) could easily do it without (B's) help or acquiescence.
Let us further suppose that (A) has the power to make it very difficult for (B) to do the thing...in fact, that(A) could PREVENT (B) from doing it...and that (A) does exactly that...PREVENTS (B) from doing what ostensibly (A) wants (B) to do.
Let us suppose that (A) decides that since (B) has not done what (A) wants him to do...he feels free to kill thousands of innocent people in order to force (B) to do it. (All this despite the fact that (A) has actively prevented (B) from complying before the slaughter.)
And finally....let us suppose that (A) does exactly that...kills thousands of innocent people in order to compel (B) to comply.
Now...by any standard of the word "murder"...this would be murder. It would be a lot more than that..but for certain, it would be "murder."
Well...dj...the story contained in Exodus is essentially of the god of the Bible...a god that had just made the earth, the sun, the other 200+ billions of suns in our galaxy and the hundreds of billions of other galaxies we know of...doing just that.
Any god that could create a universe could easily get the Hebrews out of captivity without torturing the people of Egypt with all those plagues...and the wonton slaughter of the first born. The god bragged that it was making Pharaoh obdurate and obstinate...so that Pharaoh would not release the Hebrews. And the god, after this set up...slaughtered all the Egyptian first born.
I charge that the god is a murderer.
I am not about to allow Implicator to assert that I cannot logically charge the god of the Bible with murder because the Bible defines the god as not-able-to-be-blamed.
Implicator's argument on this issue is at best specious...and at worst, much, much more.
Now, I will flesh that out a bit.
In Exodus...the barbarian tells Moses and Aaron to go to Pharaoh to demand the release of the Hebrews supposedly enslaved there.
The god tells Moses and Aaron to work miracles in its name...but ASSURES them that Pharaoh will not listen or acquiesce because "...I will make him obdurate." (The several passages dealing with this in various Bibles sometimes speak of "...I will harden his heart" or "...I will make him obstinate.")
There is absolutely no doubt that the god is telling Moses and Aaron that it (the god) WILL MAKE Pharaoh refuse to comply. In fact, the god not only brags about doing this...the god acknowledges that it is doing so to show Pharaoh just how powerful it is.
At Exodus 4:21, the god speaks to Moses and says:
"On your return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have put in your power. I WILL MAKE HIM OBSTINATE, HOWEVER, SO THAT HE WILL NOT LET THE PEOPLE GO."
At Exodus 7:3, the god speaks to Moses and says:
"In turn, your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites leave his land. YET I WILL MAKE PHARAOH SO OBSTINATE THAT, DESPITE THE MANY SIGNS AND WONDERS THAT I WILL WORK IN THE LAND OF EGYPT, HE WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOU."
At Exodus 11:10, it is written:
"Thus, although Moses and Aaron performed these various wonders in Pharaoh's presence, the Lord made Pharaoh obstinate, and he would not let the Israelites leave his land."
And...after the set-up and preordained failure of Pharaoh to release the Hebrews...the god supposedly slaughtered every first born in the land.
It was wonton murder. The kind of thing if done by a human would end up with the human placed in an institution for the criminally insane...under restrains that would make the restrains on the fictional Hannibal Lecter look fairly loose.
So...it is obvious the god is a murderer.
Quote:And BTW, I am only addressing your claim that this god is a murderer. I can just as easily address the remainder of your claims, and will be happy to do so when we are done with this claim.
Okay..I've shown the god is a murderer.
Start on the others.
Implicator wrote:djbt wrote:Implicator,
I agree that the charge of 'murderous' against the God of the Bible is problematic. I could say God commanded 'Thou shalt not kill', but then he didn't say 'I shouldn't kill', so that only makes him a hypocrite, not a murderer.
However, the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vanity, intolerance, etc. do seem to hold, based on the passages Frank has cited.
You may say that, taking the Bible as a whole, there is nothing wrong with god being vengeful, jealous, quick-to-anger, slow-to-forgive, vain, intolerant, etc., since he's God and he can be whatever he likes, but the charges themselves still seem to hold.
Is it hypocritical for a police offer to tell me to stop exceeding the speed limit, and then go and do it himself in the line of duty?
No, because he is obeying laws that bind both me and him. If I were to become a police officer, I could exceed the limit in the line of duty as he does. If God kills, for him not to be a hypocrite, there must be a justification for the killing (as the policeman has a justification), a qualifier to 'thou shalt not kill' (like in our laws 'thou shalt not speed, expect under these circumstances...). 'Thou shalt not kill unless you are omniscient' would do.
Implicator wrote:As to the other claims, some of them *do* stick (like jealousy, for instance, specifically because this god claims that he is jealous), I have decided to put them on hold, however. We are consuming more than enough bandwidth dealing with just murder
Please, let's just move on from murder. I accept that, because of the legal aspect of the word 'murder', the use of that word is problematic. Can we agree God is a serial killer and move on? If there were a word for 'unnecessary, cruel killing' that didn't have a legal aspect, I'm sure Frank would be happy to use that instead. You've made your point on the problem with the use of the word murder, and I, at least, have conceded it, can we now move on to the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vanity, intolerance, serial killing, etc.?
djbt wrote:[Please, let's just move on from murder. I accept that, because of the legal aspect of the word 'murder', the use of that word is problematic. Can we agree God is a serial killer and move on? If there were a word for 'unnecessary, cruel killing' that didn't have a legal aspect, I'm sure Frank would be happy to use that instead. You've made your point on the problem with the use of the word murder, and I, at least, have conceded it, can we now move on to the charges of vengefulness, jealousy, quick-to-anger-ness, slow-to-forgive-ness, vanity, intolerance, serial killing, etc.?
I suspect, dj, that Implicator is not rejecting my thesis of the god being a murderer because of the "legal definition" of the word.
I may be reading him wrong...but it seems to me that he is rejecting my thesis based on something entirely different...the words of the Bible. In effect, he is saying that the god of the Bible cannot be guilty of murder (or of any other "offense" of this sort) simply because the overall context of the Bible describes the god as being above such things.
Even if the god does things that for a human would be considered "murder" "barbarianism" "intolerance", etc....
..the god is immune of the face of it.
If I am correct in what Implicator asserts...I reject it out-of-hand.
If I am wrong...
...I will accept your wording of "unnecessary cruel killing."
Implicator...make the call.
Implicator wrote:1) You must objectively show that this god is a murderer or
2) You must show that this god is a murderer, considering the Christian's interpretations of the Bible as a whole
1) If murder is defined as unlawful killing, we must first decide whose laws apply here. I would guess that anyone who kills feels justified in doing so by virtue of some personal principle, even if they recognize that such killing is contrary to the laws of society. Likewise, a group that wishes to slaughters the members of another group may proclaim their moral right to do so and pass laws to that effect or get the church to sanctify the desired war, crusade, inquisition, or extermination of indigenous peoples.
Does killing cease to be murder simply by legal redefinition, or is there an objective standard that we can use to determine whether the killing in question is acceptable?
Capital punishment for certain crimes is highly controversial, and while some societies still consider religion beliefs, ethnic heritage, or fertile farmland as adequate justification for wholesale slaughter, it is (hopefully) not the majority opinion.
It is generally recognized that killing may lawfully be done in self-defense, defense of others, and justifiable war. The victim must have acted in some way so as to become a threat to you, and you may use reasonable but not excessive force. You may not kill someone just because you don't like them, don't agree with them, or want something they possess.
So was the killing reported in the Bible in any way justified? Were the people God killed a threat to him? Were they any more sinful or less deserving of life than the people who benefited from their deaths? Could he have achieved his ends without killing people, by relocating them or giving them the same laws he gave the Israelites? It was murder by any objective standards.
2) Presumably Christians interpret the Bible to mean that anything God does is lawful because God has the right to make (or disregard) any laws he chooses
and that God may have reasons we cannot know for what he does. Therefore they refuse to call it murder when God drowns millions of people, slaughters first-born children who have committed no offenses, kills babies for their parent's sins, and orders people to stone people to death for infractions of his laws, slaughter their new neighbors and steal their property. (If I ever kill anyone I want people like that on my jury!) Religions that teach their followers to blindly accept anything done in God's name are dangerous.
If a dictator commits atrocities (such as a holocaust, for instance), should the people say, "Well, it's OK because he gave himself that right and he knows more than we do, it is according to his plan "? Or should they judge his actions objectively and stop trying to appease him?
I do not understand why anyone would call the Biblical God "good" and trust him to keep his word, even though he broke his covenant with the Jews and shows consistent disregard for life, laws and standards of ethical behavior.
Why don't you pick just one for now, and we can discuss it. I am happy to address these one at a time, but I'll be happy to let you make a suggestion as to where to begin.