9
   

Non-Reasoned Positions

 
 
gollum
 
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 05:56 pm
I think that some people (e.g., Trump supporters) will adhere to a political position that they don't understand and that doesn't benefit them.

If you try to reason with them, they will not sway from their position, but they are unable to accurately or validly defend their position.

Perhaps the person adopted the position based on a tribal loyalty, or anger or resentment of some groups of people.

I think that you can not reason a man out of a position, when he did not adopt the position through reasoning.

How can you persuade such a person?
 
Albuquerque
 
  3  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 06:10 pm
@gollum,
I think most analysts have a terrible perception of what Trump voters want to achieve...

They know he is a liar, a buffoon, an opportunist, a fake...yes they know all that...but the status quo failed them for 40 years now and the middle class and the rule of law are more or less dead...they want to see the world burn as they are burned already and they will make sure they will rock politics as usual as much as they can...in a certain sense as a mob in distress they have a point, intellectuals worldwide have not catch up to the deep causes beyond the current international political mess that we are witnessing right now...unable to compute complex social forms of expression makes me laugh all day at the current state of our best minds...a sad species we are, that much I am sure!
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 07:03 pm
@gollum,
I am happy to defend the "both sides" position here. I think that many people who aren't Trump supporters do the same thing. And, I think that some people willfully ignore who Trump's supporters are too.

Trump's base are the White working class. These are not bad people (as a group). But, they feel that they are being unfairly attacked... and they have a valid point.

Take a working class White family where the parents have a high school education. They work hard. They don't have a big house. They don't get very much. They have trouble paying the rent. They aren't particularly respected and they certainly don't feel listened to.

On TV and in the newspaper they hear Hillary Clinton and Democratic congress people talking about White Privileges. To White people who look around and feel anything but privileged, this is kind of a slap in the face.

So when the Republicans, and Trump, come and say ... "hey, you are getting screwed here" these voters listen. And when a message hits you the right way (whether you are a liberal or a conservative) you will buy the rest of it.

Trump is manipulative, he crafted a message directly at these voters that the Democrats are pushing away. But it is the Democrats who set these voters up and gave them no home on the left. They went to Trump because they had nowhere else to go.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 07:06 pm
@gollum,
I can give you a list of ways that American liberals are irrational or factually wrong.

They are equally stubborn, and no more willing to be reasoned with.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 07:10 pm
On NPR a couple of years ago, I heard a liberal pundit (I don't remember who it was) state that throwing a firebomb into a police car during a Black Lives Matter protest was not an act of violence.

This statement was unchallenged in whatever discussion was taking place. They were making some point about rage and justice and not being heard, but still, violence is violence no matter what narrative you are spinning.

These kinds of positions on the left are ridiculous (if you step back and think about them), yet people accept whatever is coming from their ideological side without much thought.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 07:31 pm
@gollum,
The reality is that people can only form "reasoned opinions" based on the input they receive. If my understanding of the world matches all the observations I have, you are going to have a hard time convincing me I am wrong. This is even easier today when people tend to congregate online with others of similar views and follow news sources that match their ideological positions.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2022 07:50 pm
@engineer,
saving
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Jan, 2022 02:59 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

saving

ditto

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/01/882075310/lawyers-charged-with-seven-felonies-in-molotov-cocktail-attack-out-on-bail<br />
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jan, 2022 08:24 am
Reason can’t break through ideological dogma that is supported by the prevailing media and a team-like political atmosphere.

Take this for example:

Divergent opinion person posts unpopular opinion that goes against the majority political opinion.
Members begin accusing the poster of alliance with Russians, Republicans, Trump, etc
Divergent opinion person posts link to show proof of their statement
Members immediately vote down the link with proof

There’s no reason within miles of this phenomenon.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jan, 2022 10:08 am
@Lash,
They just want to defend their party's shortcomings by blaming the opposing party. Actually expecting their own party to assess honestly and correct the faults is not on the table.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Jan, 2022 10:32 am
@edgarblythe,
Even considering the complete failure of the American educational system, the point you made in you previous post is precisely the reason this country is in the mess it’s in now, imo.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Jan, 2022 10:39 am
@Lash,
Yep. But it's more acceptable to vote down these posts than consider the possibilities.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Jan, 2022 06:58 pm
None reasoned positions is almost a half of the content her. If we had a filter for it, I believe we'd have more of the older posters here and more new ones, also.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Wed 12 Jan, 2022 01:33 pm
@engineer,
And what they perceive is no longer informed because the government does not let its people be informed (the following is from Australian Politics, as I don't know enough about the US, but I'm sure a number of parts are the same):
- heads of the Executive no longer speak out against government policy with reasons (they used to - meaning you knew about problems with government policy)
- PR departments used to be non-existant, so you received closer to the unadorned truth
- secrecy laws weren't so encompassing - I doubt anyone thinks they haven't grown (you knew what your government was up to)
- commercial in confidence didn't exist (you knew what your government was up to)
- University experts weren't personally attacked under parliamentary privelege and didn't have their grants cut for disagreeing with the government (you got informed about the cons of government policy from experts in the field)
- Members of Parties used to cross the floor on conscience votes (you could tell when something was controversial within a party, and what the party actually thought of the topic)
- Parties weren't all about the party line (so you got to see different sides of the same argument from within a party)

My opion - people are ill informed because all parties ensure they are ill informed. Party policy is no longer about the will of the party as an expression of the will of the people - party policy is dictated by an elite group who demand that the rest of the party fall into line, and both 'parties' come up with policies that invariably favour corporations while talking of the benefit to 'the people' (this last is so consistent that it can't be coincidence)

People realise they are always being lied to by politicians. They realise there is (almost) only self interest in the government elite. They realised that no matter who they chose, they were doing almost the same thing (in terms of lining the pockets of corporations)...that is why I think Trump got into power - government had so totally failed the people, they were desperate for change. After decades of such disrespect (constantly spinning PR/lies to people who know you are lying) - they saw Trump as a straight shooter, prepared to say things no one else was prepared to say (even if he was a liar - because all the rest were liars anyway).

One Australian Politician openly said on national TV in relation to political 'truth' and constantly broken promises - that there were three kinds of truth: the truth, the honest truth, and the gospel truth. Peter Costello I think it was.
0 Replies
 
 

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