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Fitzgerald Investigation of Leak of Identity of CIA Agent

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Attempting and having are 180 degrees apart; if you already didn't know or understand that simple fact! [/b][/color]


180 degrees apart? Hardly. The difference is but a consummated transaction ... a deviation of scant degrees.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:02 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
You don't kill innocents because somebody attempted to "buy" anything. There's a thing called ethical behavior.


AUMF ... it passed the House on October 10 by a vote of 296-133, the Senate on October 11 by a vote of 77-23, and was signed into law by Bush on October 16, 2002
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:40 pm
ticomaya, You are dense; it doesn't matter how our government voted; it's an ethical issue; we don't kill innocents based on "attempted to buy" anything.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ticomaya, You are dense; it doesn't matter how our government voted; it's an ethical issue; we don't kill innocents based on "attempted to buy" anything.


No, c.i. ... you are dense. You are correct, we don't kill innocents based on "attempted to buy" anything.

Here's that AUMF link for you again. I've probably posted it a half a dozen times for you. I keep thinking one of these times you will actually click on it and read.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:48 pm
This was before it was revealed to congress and the American People that congress did not have the same intel as the administration. Bush lied.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 12:53 pm
These are FACTS on the Bush Lies that he continued to perpetuate after the facts. Find evidence to refute these, and we'll have a starting point for discussion.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:06 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
ticomaya, You are dense; it doesn't matter how our government voted; it's an ethical issue; we don't kill innocents based on "attempted to buy" anything.


So it doesn't matter any more how the government voted? Ha Ha, thats a good one, cicerone, I will try to remember to quote you on that one.

Per killing innocents, Iraq is about to hang the guy that killed innocents, and capturing the guy was made possible by us. So we helped prevent killing of more innocents. Surely you can agree on that?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:14 pm
okie, Human organizations, whatever they are, have human frailties of making mistakes. That you think any government, their legislation and actions, is perfect is not realistic.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:18 pm
No, I can't agree with that; Iraq was a sovereign country. If we are consistent about eliminating tyrants from this world, there are many, but its impossible for us alone to do so. It is not our responsibility to change governments; that responsibility belongs to the world community.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:27 pm
Thats all fine and dandy, cicerone. I can agree we cannot eliminate all tyrants and that going to war is no shallow action. To review my position, I studied it and weighed the pros and cons, and considered what the CIA told us and the president, and I teetered on whether I was for it or not. I debated every point with a friend who took the opposite position. I finally came down on the presidents side, and I imagine my decision making process was similar to that of Congress, except they had all the resources at their disposal, more than I had. Bottom line, they voted for it, cicerone, with the information as understood at the time.

I take the position that we should stick by our decision and support the president if that is how we voted as a representative republic, and I see Congressmen that flip flop as two faced and hypocrits. I have no respect for those politicians whatsoever. I could understand it if it is proven that Bush framed it all, as liberal leftists have tried to build a case for. But that fails as well, as a Congressional investigation found that scenario as false. End of story.

So we are in Iraq. We should all quit sniping at Bush for self serving and political motivations, and hoping the war fails, and instead make good decisions from here. I am not at all convinced we are losing. We are losing the PR war, thats for sure.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:32 pm
okie, We all make subjective choices in life; some are right and some are wrong. That's a human frailty; we are not perfect.

I disagree with all my siblings about religion and politics, but I know for a fact that none of us will change our subjective beliefs. None of us are always right or always wrong; it just is.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Dec, 2006 01:41 pm
Ditto to all of that, cicerone, and compliments on what I perceive as debating with the evidence as you see it. We disagree but at least the discussion is civil and open.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
These are FACTS on the Bush Lies that he continued to perpetuate after the facts. Find evidence to refute these, and we'll have a starting point for discussion.

CI, MediaMatters is an openly liberal website, and has been found to be wrong on many occasions. I believe they are way too biased to play an evenhanded game on the issue of the Iraq War or any other partisan issue.

I'm also not too surprised that Rockefeller's office was being openly critical. A democratic staffer from Rockefeller's office wrote a memo that pretty much sums up the mindset of the democrats. It was about politics.
From source: http://www.hillnews.com/news/110603/memo.aspx

Quote:
We have carefully reviewed our options under the rules and believe we have identified the best approach. Our plan is as follows:

1) Pull the majority along as far as we can on issues that may lead to major new disclosures regarding improper or questionable conduct by administration officials. We are having some success in that regard.

For example, in addition to the President's State of the Union speech, the chairman [Sen. Pat Roberts] has agreed to look at the activities of the office of the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, as well as Secretary Bolton's office at the State Department.

The fact that the chairman supports our investigations into these offices and cosigns our requests for information is helpful and potentially crucial. We don't know what we will find but our prospects for getting the access we seek is far greater when we have the backing of the majority. [We can verbally mention some of the intriguing leads we are pursuing.]

2) Assiduously prepare Democratic 'additional views' to attach to any interim or final reports the committee may release. Committee rules provide this opportunity and we intend to take full advantage of it.

In that regard we may have already compiled all the public statements on Iraq made by senior administration officials. We will identify the most exaggerated claims. We will contrast them with the intelligence estimates that have since been declassified. Our additional views will also, among other things, castigate the majority for seeking to limit the scope of the inquiry.

The Democrats will then be in a strong position to reopen the question of establishing an Independent Commission [i.e., the Corzine Amendment.]

3) Prepare to launch an independent investigation when it becomes clear we have exhausted the opportunity to usefully collaborate with the majority. We can pull the trigger on an independent investigation of the administration's use of intelligence at any time. But we can only do so once.

The best time to do so will probably be next year, either:

A) After we have already released our additional views on an interim report, thereby providing as many as three opportunities to make our case to the public. Additional views on the interim report (1). The announcement of our independent investigation (2). And (3) additional views on the final investigation. Or:

B) Once we identify solid leads the majority does not want to pursue, we would attract more coverage and have greater credibility in that context than one in which we simply launch an independent investigation based on principled but vague notions regarding the use of intelligence.

In the meantime, even without a specifically authorized independent investigation, we continue to act independently when we encounter footdragging on the part of the majority. For example, the FBI Niger investigation was done solely at the request of the vice chairman. We have independently submitted written requests to the DOD and we are preparing further independent requests for information.

SUMMARY: Intelligence issues are clearly secondary to the public's concern regarding the insurgency in Iraq. Yet we have an important role to play in revealing the misleading, if not flagrantly dishonest, methods and motives of senior administration officials who made the case for unilateral preemptive war.

The approach outlined above seems to offer the best prospect for exposing the administration's dubious motives.

There you have it. The above approach does a good job of exposing the democrat's dubious motives. They prove that they they know that concern is for the insurgency rather than the intelligence, but are more interested in attacking Bush and will do everything possible to direct the public awareness to the issue of intelligence.

If Bush lied when he said Saddam Hussein had and/or was pursing WMD, than so did the CIA, French Intelligence, British Intelligence, German Intelligence, Jordanian Intelligence, Russian Intelligence, Egyptian Intelligence, the U.N., Director George Tenet, Former President Clinton, weapons inspector David Kay, Former Secretary of State Madeline Albright, and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. There are more and they all used the same intelligence.

Hilary Clinton is even on record as stating that the intelligence that was used by the Bush administration was consistent with the intelligence during the Bill Clinton presidency. So if mediamatters states that it is a fact that Bush used different intelligence than everyone else, it was the same intelligence Bill Clinton was using.

Harry Reid forced the Senate into a closed session to investigate allegations that the administration pressured the U.S. intelligence community to spin the intelligence to support the war, and concluded that no such pressure took place. There wasn't even one single democrat of that closed session who dissented with the results of that investigation.

The Bush Lied and Kids Died mantra was a lie in its inception, continues to be a lie.

There is a strong case for support that Saddam held stopckpiles of WMD. Iraqui Air Force General (second in command) Georges Sada stated that in 2002, the Iraquis shipped stockpiles of WMD to Syria in jets that were flying under the pretense of a humanitarian mission. Saddam gassed the Kurds in his own country in 1988, killing 180,000, sending missles armed with chemical warheads.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:16 pm
Monte Cargo, the Democrats and the media have almost gotten everyone convinced that Bush lied, and he trumped this whole thing up and duped everyone into believing in the WMD, and that it never existed. There are a few of us that recollect what did happen. But the revisionists will never be convinced. They have their blinders on, period. On the front of the blinders it says "WE HATE BUSH AND WE WANT TO HAVE OUR POWER BACK NO MATTER WHAT, AND WE WILL MAKE UP ANY LIE TO MAKE BUSH OUT AS THE WORST DEVIL TO EVER LIVE." Thats right, in their mind, I think they think hes worse than Saddam Hussein, OBL, Hitler, and maybe even the devil himself.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:46 pm
Naw, Bush doesn't lie. Here's a few of them.




Stay the Course.

BUSH: We will stay the course. [8/30/06]

BUSH: We will stay the course, we will complete the job in Iraq. [8/4/05]

BUSH: We will stay the course until the job is done, Steve. And the temptation is to try to get the President or somebody to put a timetable on the definition of getting the job done. We're just going to stay the course. [12/15/03]

BUSH: And my message today to those in Iraq is: We'll stay the course. [4/13/04]

BUSH: And that's why we're going to stay the course in Iraq. And that's why when we say something in Iraq, we're going to do it. [4/16/04]

BUSH: And so we've got tough action in Iraq. But we will stay the course. [4/5/04]



DOMESTIC SPYING

During the 2004 campaign, Bush claimed "Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires -- a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so." See video.

The Bush administration has offered the following justifications for its spying on U.S. citizens:
No Time for Warrants It could not wait to get a warrant because it needed "to move quickly to detect" plotting of terrorism between people in the United States and abroad. (President Bush 12/19/05)

Congress Gave Authority: "authorization to use force, which was passed by the Congress in the days following September 11th, constitutes . . . authorization. . . to engage in this kind of signals intelligence. (Attorney General Gonzales 12/19/05)

Eavesdropping Key To Thwarting Terrorist Attacks: "This authorization is a vital tool in our war against the terrorists," Bush said in December. "It is critical to saving American lives." Vice President Cheney claimed wiretapping Americans had "saved thousands of lives." "It is, I'm convinced, one of the reasons we haven't been attacked in the past four years," he added.

- A Program "Very Limited In Nature": The NSA program is one that listens to a few numbers, called from the outside of the United States and of known al Qaeda or affiliate people," Bush has said. "[O]bviously I had to make the difficult decision between balancing civil liberties and, on a limited basis -- and I mean limited basis -- try to find out the intention of the enemy." "It is very limited in nature," Scott McClellan claimed


And this very old one.

IRAQ WMD's




The Bush administration religiously chanted the contention that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction as its basis for a war.

For example, in his address to the nation Bush said the intelligence "leaves no doubt that . . . Iraq . . . continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Vice President Cheney also was part of the chorus and declared that "there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction."

THE FACTS
Similarly, the CIA's Duelfer's Report Iraq concluded that Iraq:

HAD NO WMD's.
"had no . . . strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions" ended
Iraq failed "to acquire long range Iraq's nuclear program ended in 1991 following the Gulf War."
"Iraq unilaterally destroyed is undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter."
In spite of exhaustive investigation, ISG found no evidence that Iraq possessed, or was developing BW agent product systems mounted on road vehicles or railway wagons."
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:56 pm
Same old cut and paste stuff. I would like to see you guys look at the whole picture for once and look at what happened in context, just once would be nice, and at least a start.
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 09:59 pm
okie wrote:
Monte Cargo, the Democrats and the media have almost gotten everyone convinced that Bush lied, and he trumped this whole thing up and duped everyone into believing in the WMD, and that it never existed. There are a few of us that recollect what did happen. But the revisionists will never be convinced. They have their blinders on, period. On the front of the blinders it says "WE HATE BUSH AND WE WANT TO HAVE OUR POWER BACK NO MATTER WHAT, AND WE WILL MAKE UP ANY LIE TO MAKE BUSH OUT AS THE WORST DEVIL TO EVER LIVE." Thats right, in their mind, I think they think hes worse than Saddam Hussein, OBL, Hitler, and maybe even the devil himself.


Guess who said these things (answers at the bottom):

1. "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

2. "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

3. "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."

4. "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983." -

5. "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

6. "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

7. "Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

ANSWERS TO WHO DELIVERED THE QUOTES LISTED ABOVE
---------------------------------------------------------------------

1. - President William Jefferson Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
2. - President William Jefferson Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
3. - Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
4. - Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998
5. - - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D - MA), and others Oct. 9,1998
6. - Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
7. - Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Dec, 2006 10:03 pm
okie wrote:
Same old cut and paste stuff. I would like to see you guys look at the whole picture for once and look at what happened in context, just once would be nice, and at least a start.

Great article here: http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20154 by Bill Tierney

Quote:
Tierney: It was probably on my second inspection that I realized the Iraqis had no intention of ever cooperating. They had very successfully turned The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspections during the eighties into tea parties, and had expected UNSCOM to turn out the same way. However, there was one fundamental difference between IAEA and UNSCOM that the Iraqis did not account for. There was a disincentive in IAEA inspections to be aggressive and intrusive, since the same standards could then be applied to the members states of the inspectors. IAEA had to consider the continued cooperation of all the member states. UNSCOM, however, was focused on enforcing and verifying one specific Security Council Resolution, 687, and the level of intrusiveness would depend on the cooperation from Iraq.

I came into the inspection program as an interrogator and Arabic linguist, so I crossed over various fields and spotted various deception techniques that may not have been noticed in only one field, such as chemical or biological. For instance, the Iraqis would ask in very reasonable tones that questionable documents be set aside until the end of the day, when a discussion would determine what was truly of interest to UNSCOM. The chief inspector, not wanting to appear like a knuckle-dragging ogre, would agree. Instead of setting the documents on a table in a stack, the Iraqis would set them side to side, filling the entire table top, and would place the most explosive documents on the edge of the table. At some point they would flood the room with people, and in the confusion abscond with the revealing documents.

This occurred at Tuwaitha Atomic Research Facility in 1996. A car tried to blow through an UNSCOM vehicle checkpoint at the gate. The car had a stack of documents about two feet high in the back seat. In the middle of the stack, I found a document with a Revolutionary Command Council letterhead that discussed Atomic projects with four number designations that were previously unknown. The Iraqis were extremely concerned. I turned the document over to the chief inspector, who then fell for the Iraqis' "reasonable request" to lay it out on a table for later discussion. The Iraqis later flooded the room, and the document disappeared. Score one for the Iraqis.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 05:58 am
okie, Is that your best response to these "cut and paste" facts? Get a life!
0 Replies
 
Monte Cargo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Dec, 2006 12:23 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
okie, Is that your best response to these "cut and paste" facts? Get a life!

It would have been nice if you at least had posted the link. The material obviously did come from a website.
0 Replies
 
 

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