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Fitzgerald Investigation of Leak of Identity of CIA Agent

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 07:58 am
It is not even close. The administration received three reports from US officials that Iraq was not seeking yellow cake. But this was an inconvenient truth to the administration. The reports may have interfered with invading Iraq.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 08:50 am
Bernard, thanks again for references to the Butler report. Democrats want it both ways. They want yesterday's decisions to be based on today's knowledge. Not possible. This could not be more evident by their effort to now overturn the congressional approval of Bush to go to war. That would work real nice, especially for wars we lost. We can now roll back the vote to send troops to South Vietnam, rewrite the history books, and pretend the war never happened. It wasn't LBJ's fault after all.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 09:43 am
BernardR wrote:
Since I am certain that you have never read the Senate Intelligence Committee Report, Mr. Parados, I will extract one of its conclusions. You are, of course, able, I hope, to read it for yourself.

Note:
Quote Senate Intelligence Committee:
(U) Conclusion 13. The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.

End of quote

Your unsourced comments in your post are obvioulsly ignorant!!!!


Gee, the State Dept felt Niger wasn't willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq. The State Dept discounted the intelligence that said there was a deal or likely a deal. So much for ignorance there Bernard.

Of course, maybe you should read the REST of the Butler report before you pretend you know everything that is in it. which of my stated facts do you think isn't a fact? You didn't address any of them.



Falsus in omnia Bernard. You continue down the same path.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 09:44 am
okie wrote:
Bernard, thanks again for references to the Butler report. Democrats want it both ways. They want yesterday's decisions to be based on today's knowledge. Not possible. This could not be more evident by their effort to now overturn the congressional approval of Bush to go to war. That would work real nice, especially for wars we lost. We can now roll back the vote to send troops to South Vietnam, rewrite the history books, and pretend the war never happened. It wasn't LBJ's fault after all.

Okie, I see you can't address my statement either. What fact did I get wrong?

Why don't you call us commies again. It seems to be your fall back tactic.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 10:55 am
Re: Butler Report and pertinence to the facts

Uranium from Africa: How "Bought" Became "Sought" Introduction
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007527.php

Uranium from Africa: How "Bought" Became "Sought" - Part 1: The British Uranium Claim


Quote:
a close reading of multiple Government reports (SSCI, Robb-Silberman, and the British Taylor and Butler reports) has made it abundantly clear that the Bush SOTU uranium claim was only about Niger. In the context of Niger, the "vigorously trying to procure uranium" claim in the DIA report referred specifically to the alleged uranium purchase deal, not just to evidence about an attempt to purchase uranium. In short, in the context of Niger, the origin of the NIE's "vigorously trying to procure" claim was very much the intel about an alleged uranium purchase deal (a sale of uranium), not intel that showed Iraq was only seeking uranium.


http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/007541.php
Quote:
Josh Marshall (Talkingpointsmemo)

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/003169.php
has covered a third aspect of the Butler Report, where the forged Niger documents are briefly mentioned:

As the Butler Report puts it ...
We have been told that it was not until early 2003 that the British Government became aware that the US (and other states) had received from a journalistic source a number of documents alleged to cover the Iraqi procurement of uranium from Niger. Those documents were passed to the IAEA, which in its update report to the United Nations Security Council in March 2003 determined that the papers were forgeries ... The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it.
In other words, whatever the deal was with those forgeries, it doesn't affect our judgment because we didn't have the forgeries.
This is what can only be called an artful rendering of the truth.

No, they didn't have the forged documents. But one of their two reports -- indeed, the more important of the two -- was a written summary of the documents provided by Italy -- the same summary the Italians had earlier provided to the Americans, which the CIA used to brief Joe Wilson before they sent him off to Niger. The second report came to them apparently only a week or so before they issued their public document with the claim about Iraq trying to buy uranium in Africa.

This point is pretty widely understood by people following or reporting on this story. But what's interesting to note is the difference between the Butler Report's rendition of events and that of a UK parliamentary committee report [link obsolete; here's a working link] produced in September 2003 and chaired by Ann Taylor, an MP who would later serve as a member of the Butler committee.

Here's how the parliamentary committee described the Brits' two sources of evidence on pages 27 and 28 (emphasis added)...

89. The Committee questioned the Chief of the SIS about the reporting behind these statements. We were told that it came from two independent sources, one of which was based on documentary evidence. One had reported in June 2002 and the other in September that the Iraqis had expressed interest in purchasing, as it had done before, uranium from Niger. GCHQ also had some sigint concerning a visit by an Iraqi official to Niger.
90. The SIS's two sources reported that Iraq had expressed an interest in buying uranium from Niger, but the sources were uncertain whether contracts had been signed or if uranium had actually been shipped to Iraq. In order to protect the intelligence sources and to be factually correct, the phrase "Iraq has sought the supply of significant quantities of uranium from Africa" was used. At the time of producing the dossier, nothing had challenged the accuracy of the SIS reports.

91. In February 2003 the International Atomic Energy Authority (IAEA) received from a third party (not the UK) documents that the party had acquired in the autumn of 2002 and which purported to be evidence of Iraq's attempts to obtain uranium from Niger. In March 2003 the IAEA identified some of the documents it had received as forgeries and called into question the authenticity of the others.

92. The third party then released its documents to the SIS. The SIS then contacted its source to check the authenticity of its documentary evidence. The SIS told us that its source was still conducting further investigations into this matter.

93. The SIS stated that the documents did not affect its judgement of its second source and consequently the SIS continues to believe that the Iraqis were attempting to negotiate the purchase of uranium from Niger. We have questioned the SIS about the basis of its judgement and conclude that it is reasonable.

That penultimate sentence is key. By saying the documents didn't affect the judgment on the second source, we can fairly infer that they did affect the judgment of the first -- namely, because the documents (or rather a summary of them) were the first source.
As I say, there's a lot of jargon and bureaucratic gobbledygook here. But the key point is that the authors of the earlier report felt free to be candid about what the Butler Report chose to keep hidden -- namely, that most of the British judgment about 'uranium from Africa' was based on the phony documents the Butler Report claims had nothing to do with their judgment.

Note that the "second source" (whose judgment was supposedly trustworthy, but not really) was the one associated with the claim that Iraq's visit to Niger in February 1999 was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. The conclusion of the Butler Report (p. 125, paragraph 503) clearly uses this visit alone as the evidence for the statement that Iraq was seeking uranium from Africa - and this has been discussed at length in Section 2.

Moreover, the Taylor Report's statement that:

...the documents did not affect its judgement of its second source...
does not preclude the possibility that the second source was based on second-hand reporting or assertions that were ultimately based on the contents of the Niger dossier/documents. The Wissam Al-Zahawi trip to Niger in 1999 was never in dispute (what was in dispute was that the trip had anything to do with uranium) and the Niger dossier in fact had a document which was likely authentic - Doc 1, which discussed the planned Al-Zahawie trip. Alongside, was Doc 2 which was a forgery which tried to link Wissam Al-Zahawie to uranium and it is well known that multiple Western intelligence agencies received the Niger uranium reports from SISMI. So, it is likely that the British Government was simply misleading their parliamentary committees on the second source and just asserting that Al-Zahawie's trip had something to do with uranium even though there was no credible intel from anyone proving that was the case. Rather, as the evidence discussed in Section 2 shows, all of the British claims were ultimately traceable in some form or the other to the contents of the Niger dossier.


http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004909.php#3
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:05 pm
parados wrote:
Is the only way for you retract is when we agree with you?

Fact- the CIA had differing opinions about whether Iraq was trying to buy uranium.
Fact- The state dept felt it wasn't true.
Fact - The British also had doubts about it.
Fact - in retrospect no one now thinks it happened because the "evidence" has proven to be false.
Fact - The IAEA stated - "no indication that Iraq attempted to import uranium since 1990"

In 2003, the diplomat that Iraq sent to Niger was interviewed by the IAEA. He said there was no attempt to purchase uranium. The Niger government said there was no attempt. The documents Iraq provided on the trip show no attempt.

I am tired of being called unamerican because I don't lick Bush's ass. Maybe you need to grow up and realize that being in America means that others get to have different opinions.


Parados, at least you seem to be admitting that there were differences of opinion within the intelligence communities. Secondly, "in retrospect" does not apply. Decisions are made based on the information known at the time the decisions are made. Perhaps, we could all simply admit the obvious, as Bush often likes to say, "we simply have a difference of opinion." In my opinion, that is what happened. Bush believed the worst of Saddam Hussein, probably because of his track record. The important thing to remember here is that Bush could not have made this all up and lied his way into war if he had the most carefully plotted plan in the history of the country. The truth is that the bureacracies overseeing intelligence simply did not know for sure, they made their best estimate, and Bush acted. There were conflicting opinions, and Bush made a judgement.

Instead of Bush haters accusing Bush of lying and stupidity, you would earn a whole lot more credibility by offering a more fair, balanced view of what actually happened. Simply disagree with the policy for policy reasons, and be consistent. You cannot flip flop on what you would have done based on today's information. You should be intellectually honest and take full responsibility for your positions and stick with your decisions based on the information known at the time the decisions were made.

As far as being unAmerican, I am sorry to insult you, but there are reasons why I've acquired those opinions. I will offer a conditional apology, the condition being I am going to keep a very close eye on your opinions and point out those opinions that bring the impression of being unAmerican. By the way, I am not a rabid flag waving maniac, but I do appreciate the freedoms and way of life afforded us by this country, and I think we should simply appreciate the country we live in.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:36 pm
I guess stating facts isn't fair or balanced. I guess I should be more like Bernard and make crap up then I would be fair and balanced in your eyes.

I made no editorial comment on the facts. I only stated them.

The Butler report states
Quote:
We have been told that it was not until early 2003 that the British Government became
aware that the US (and other states) had received from a journalistic source a number of
documents alleged to cover the Iraqi procurement of uranium from Niger. Those
documents were passed to the IAEA, which in its update report to the United Nations
Security Council in March 2003 determined that the papers were forgeries:


Is the Butler report OK to use as a source or not?
Quote:

d. The forged documents were not available to the British
Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact
of the forgery does not undermine it.


The reality is that no one now thinks that Iraq tried to purchase uranium in 1999. The IAEA says that. The British say that. The CIA says that.

Your view of "fair and balanced" is horseshit okie. Either dispute my facts or argue against a claim I made. Making up your own strawman is really quite lame when you do it in the same post you want me to be more "fair and balanced."
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:41 pm
Jean Chretien's "proof is proof" makes more sense all the time.

Odd.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:42 pm
Both Mr. Parados and Mr. KLuvasz would like to say that the following material is not a DIRECT QUOTE FROM p. 125 OF THE Butler Report.

If they can prove that it isn't, then they are correct in thier statements. Mr.Kuvasz and Mr. Parados carefully avoid going to the source--referencing all kinds of other garbage written by left wingers.

Here, again are the EXACT WORDS FROM PAGE 125 OF THE BUTLER REPORT:
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:43 pm
bleep
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:47 pm
THE Direct Quote from the Butler Report--

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger's exports, the intelligence was credible.

c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.


I know Mr. Parados can't read well and I am starting to worry about Mr. Kuvasz.

I'LL SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU KINDERGARTEN STYLE, MR. PARADOS.

The nice mans in the Butler Place wrote- that the Iraqi bad mans really and truly looked for the icky stuff--Uranium.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:49 pm
I am really worried about Mr. Kuvasz. Now he is referencing left wing sources like "the left coast" If he begins to qoute from Common Dreams or truth out, I know he has really gone around the bend.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 12:53 pm
Both Mr. Parados and Mr. Kuvasz should know better. They are really not dong good research when they go to secondary and tertiary sources. I am surprised. The best sources are the primary sources. In this case, they are the Butler Report and the Senate Intelligence Committee. I gave DIRECT QUOTES from the Butler Report. Mr. Parados and Mr. Kuvasz DO NOT GIVE THE PAGE NUMBERS OF THEIR SO-CALLED EVIDENCE SO THAT IT CAN BE LOOKED AT.

Are they making things up? Could be. Especially Mr. Parados who is notorious for writing without ever giving a specific source and the location of that source in the document he is referring to. NOW- a link to the Senate Intelligence Committee Report- CONCLUSIONS-

http://www.msnbc.com/id/5403731


(U) Conclusion 13. The report on the former ambassador's trip to Niger, disseminated in March 2002, did not change any analysts' assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal, but State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) analysts believed that the report supported their assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.

I think Mr. Kuvasz can read. I am not certain about Mr. Parados. There is nothing in the Senate Intelligence Report which contradicts the BUTLER REPORT WHEN IT SAYS( SEE PRIOR POST) "The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq ever purchased, as opposed to H A V I N G S O U G H T, uranium"

and, the bugaboo about the so called "forgeries" did not, I repeat, did not enter into the deliberations of the Butler Report. Indeed, the Butler Report states clearly that:

quote:

THE FORGED DOCUMENTS WERE NOT AVAILABLE TO THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME ITS ASSESSMENT WAS MADE, AND SO THE FACT OF FORGERY DOES NOT UNDERMINE THAT ASSESSMENT.



I am hopeful that Mr. Parados and Mr. Kuvasz will act as scholars instead of clueless sophomore who can't do research and will critique the ORIGINAL SOURCES instead of referring to obviously biased Secondary and Tertiary sources such as those named, God Forbid--The left coast--That appelation advertises itself as a biased source. I am astonished that Mr. Kuvasz would use it.

I would add that the fact that both Mr. Kuvasz and Mr. Parados do not quote primary sources and DO NOT give the source for their quotes in those primary sources, is additional evidence that their arguments are very very weak!
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:20 pm
Again, Mr. Kuvasz quotes from the left coast. The left coast does not give a refenence to Primary Sources.

Mr. Parados ALLEGEDLY quotes from the Butler Report, I have read it and I have not found the alleged "quotes he gives from it.

Until he does, his evidence is inadmissible. Given his inability to read and understand, he may have made it up.

When he gives the location of his "purported" quotes, ( if, in fact they really exist)--He will note, I hope that I gave a link and page numbers< I will examine them since they would, as he presents them, appear to contradict the conclusion of the Butler Report which says( as I have already referenced,giving page numbers) that "The British government had intelligence from several sources indicating that this visit was for the PURPOSES OF ACQUIRING URANIUM>
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:27 pm
parados wrote:

The reality is that no one now thinks that Iraq tried to purchase uranium in 1999. The IAEA says that. The British say that. The CIA says that.

Your view of "fair and balanced" is horseshit okie. Either dispute my facts or argue against a claim I made. Making up your own strawman is really quite lame when you do it in the same post you want me to be more "fair and balanced."


Even you, Parados, is honest enough to insert the word, "now." Either that or a slipup on your part. I do not concede even now that the intelligence community is unanimous. In the current mess with Hezbollah, some have expressed fears of them using weapons carted there from Iraq. But even if it is unanimous now, it certainly was not in 2003.

Fair and balanced would help, Parados. Bush haters cannot bring themselves to discuss this in a reasonable manner, but instead resort to terms describing the Bush administration as liars, scumbags, idiots, incompetents, terrorists, 911 plotters, the list goes on, Parados.

I keep throwing you a complement now and then, trying to encourage you to take the high road by discussing the subject reasonably and fair, but no, you won't have any of it.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:32 pm
It appears being honest isn't being "fair and balanced".

It says something about "fair and balanced" when honesty isn't part of the equation.

Reasonably and fair? Who the heck started the name calling? It wasn't me. I guess I must not be reasonable or fair for sticking to facts.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:38 pm
Bernard,

Falsus in omnia my friend.

Do you know that d comes after c?

The fourth conclusion is d. If you can't find d after you have posted a, b, c then you need more help then I can provide. I wonder how you can reasonably claim you can't find d. in the Butler report. Perhaps your claim isn't reasonable at all.

The Butler report only deals with Niger from page 121-125. How can you not find my quotes Bernard? Failure to read perhaps? Or is it that falsus in omnia again my friend.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:56 pm
parados wrote:
It appears being honest isn't being "fair and balanced".

It says something about "fair and balanced" when honesty isn't part of the equation.

Reasonably and fair? Who the heck started the name calling? It wasn't me. I guess I must not be reasonable or fair for sticking to facts.


Parados, what you perceive as a matter of honesty, I do not agree with. Its a matter of disagreement, not honesty. Strangely, liberals can't see the difference. I guess You are so arrogantly correct 100% of the time that anyone disagreeing with you automatically becomes a liar.

What name calling? If you can provide some name calling that I no longer stand behind, I will be willing to aplogize. I doubt you can.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:57 pm
Assume for the sake of argument that Bush was facing conflicts regarding the facts of Iraq seeking to buy yellow cake. Well, a president doesn't go to war until all doubt has been resolved. This is a war with untold thousands killed and wounded, not to mention untold loss of treasury.

The fact of the matter is that Bush was going to invade no matter what the facts were. There is a ton of evidence on this.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Aug, 2006 01:57 pm
What fourth conclusion? There is no fourth conclusion. You are making things up again. I don't see a fourth conclusion. Quote the fourth conclusion with the Precise page number. It is clear that Mr. Parados has not read the Senate Intelligence Report. I have and UNLIKE HIM, WHO ALWAYS IS OBFUSCATING AND STATING THINGS THAT HE CANNOT PROVE AND DOES NOT REFERENCE, I WILL DO SO.

From the Senate Intelligence Report on Niger and Uranium) Previously linked--
SECTION U---I repeat Section U

U) The former ambassador also told Committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article ("CIA Did Not Share Doubt on Iraq Data; Bush Used Report of Uranium Bid," June 12, 2003) which said, "among the Envoy's conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because `the dates were wrong and the names were wrong." Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the "dates were wrong and the names were wrong" when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports. The former ambassador said that he may have "misspoken" to the reporter when he said he concluded the documents were "forged." He also said he may have become confused about his own recollection after the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported in March 2003 that the names and dates on the documents were not correct and may have thought he had seen the names himself. The former ambassador reiterated that he had been able to collect the names of the government officials which should have been on the documents.


The former ambassador, was of course, the liar Joseph C. Wilson, the husband of the allegedly "outed" CIA agent Valerie Plame. I will, of course, be on these threads when the Libby case concludes and NO ONE IS CHARGED WITH "OUTING' AN AGENT. BUT BACK TO THE LIAR, WILSON.

Mr. Parados, who has problems reading, will note that it the primary evidence from the Senate Intelligence Committee, the COMMITTEE STAFF ASKED HOW THE FORMER AMBASSADOR( wilson) COULD HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE 'DATES WERE WRONG AND THE NAMES WERE WRONG WHEN HE H A D N E V E R S E E N THE CIA REPORTS AND HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT NAMES AND DATES WERE IN THE REPORTS>


The liar, Wilson, admits he may have "Mispoken" to the reporter. As a Mispeaker, he has allies in Mr. Parados!!!
0 Replies
 
 

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