17
   

Am I (and are you) a "liberal extremist" or an 'evil progressive"?

 
 
Mame
 
  2  
Sat 11 Dec, 2021 11:25 am
@izzythepush,
I'm not worried - just curious as to what they mean and why they're repeated so often.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Sat 11 Dec, 2021 11:30 am
@Mame,
Buzzwords.

Liberal extremist is an oxymoron, Liberalism by definition is centrist, and Liberalism in America is centre right.

There's not a lot of difference between America's Democrats and our Conservatives.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  3  
Sat 11 Dec, 2021 02:47 pm
@oralloy,
The use of "all of X" (X being a symbols/classification/proxy etc) always leads to problems, whether it be:
- innacurate definition of 'X' (despite dictionaries, people tend to have their own definitions)
- uncertain application of the definition of 'X' to a person (who may sit at the very edge of X, or oscillate in and out of X, or swing both ways in relation to the definition of X)
- frequent but misplaced beliefs that all of X = Y (humans are incredibly complex and highly variable by nature - even after you account for the significant similarities)
....and that is only scratching the surface of the problems associated with attempting to classify a person and then equate an outcome as to who they are.

I use X because it doesn't matter what symbol/classification/proxy is used in place of X, the problems found are almost always exactly the same.

I recall reading a book that suggested the reason we humans do this, harks back to the caveman days, when humans had to make instantaneous decisions in order to survive. So we developed the ability to instantly:
- categorise (accurately or not didn't matter, as it had to be instant for the second part to work); and
- to associate X with danger or survival
- so that we could immediately react to any possible threat

Ideology almost never played a role in life or death back then, so there were no survival traits written into our DNA for it. But in days where shelter wasn't strong, warning was often non-existant, and law was truly non-existant, accuracy wasn't necessary - instant decision making was an ability that frequently saved your life. Lack of ability frequently (eventually) lead to death Ie. the world had to black and white to them, in order to survive long enough to procreate

That ability became written into our DNA. It carries over into todays world (which now included ideological issues) in multiple problematic ways, like using and believing in categorisations for people, when categorisations are known to be rarely fully accurate, and often highly inaccurate. Many still actually believe in the accuracy of categorisations, without ever understanding where their belief in categorisation comes from.

Given all of the above, the more vague the concept associated with danger, the more inaccurate it is likely to be ie. man looking at me with hate, holding gun, pointing it at me = danger...is still valid, being based on actions directly in front of you. But Ideological or Conceptual categorisations are rarely encompassing, even when self confessed, and any belief that all of X = Y will often both be inaccurate at the start (the definition/classification stage) and at the end result stage

Individual actions & ideas are still up for judgement. Total classifications face problems.
vikorr
 
  3  
Sat 11 Dec, 2021 02:58 pm
@vikorr,
For this reason, I wouldn't put much weight in any attempt to categorise a person. Doing so is a caveman trait.

Explaining why they find an idea you hold to be flawed. That shows evolution.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 09:42 am
@oralloy,
Code:When progressives commit atrocities against innocent people,


Just once, for shits and giggles: name and describe a "progressive atrocity" against anyone.
oralloy
 
  -4  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 09:52 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Outlawing pistol grips for no reason just so progressives can violate people's civil liberties for fun.

Framing Scooter Libby and getting him convicted for imaginary crimes.

Lynching white people for merely protecting themselves when black people attack them.

Stealing the 2008 Michigan presidential primary.

Putting peaceful January 6th protesters in jail.

Did you want just one? They are all so unforgivable that I don't think I can pick just one.
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 10:22 am
@oralloy,
I don't think you know what an atrocity is.
Mame
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 10:51 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Exactly what I was thinking. Just like max isn't able to differentiate between sad and tragic.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 10:55 am
@Mame,
I wouldn't be surprised if Oralloy were Max's sockpuppet, I've long suspected that Max occasionally disagrees with Oralloy's most extreme pronouncements in a vain attempt to appear centrist.

It didn't work for Dr Goebbels and he was a darn sight smarter than Max
hightor
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 11:06 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Stealing the 2008 Michigan presidential primary.


You're a man who likes to hold a grudge!

I sympathize with Mrs. Dingell's reasons for trying to move the Michigan primary. The "tradition" of allowing the Iowa caucuses and N.H. primary to be held earlier than all the others, however, was incorporated into the party rules and the Michigan party clearly defied the DNC. The state delegation was first disqualified, later awarded a half vote, and full voting rights were restored before the convention.

I think the primary system should be reformed but the best way to do this would be by having concerned states act together. There's no way the DNC would threaten to disqualify the delegations of a half dozen or more states.

I'm sorry that you still feel that your state was treated shabbily but, for some reason I don't think your political views would be any different if this "atrocity" hadn't happened.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 11:51 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
You're a man who likes to hold a grudge!

I'll likely vote for all Republicans in every general election for the rest of my life.


hightor wrote:
I sympathize with Mrs. Dingell's reasons for trying to move the Michigan primary. The "tradition" of allowing the Iowa caucuses and N.H. primary to be held earlier than all the others, however, was incorporated into the party rules and the Michigan party clearly defied the DNC.

That isn't want happened. Michigan got the rules changed so that New Hampshire was no longer first.

New Hampshire then violated those rules and went first anyway.

Normally when a state violated the rules like that, their delegates were halved. However, the national party decided to not punish New Hampshire at all for violating the rules.

After New Hampshire was allowed to violate the rules without penalty, only then did Michigan decide to break the rules too.


hightor wrote:
The state delegation was first disqualified, later awarded a half vote, and full voting rights were restored before the convention.

That is not why I am upset. As you say, our delegates were allowed to vote in the end.

In order to please New Hampshire zealots, Barack Obama took his name off the Michigan ballot. One consequence of that is that he did not receive any Michigan votes.

There was then a push to rerun the primary with Barack Obama's name back on the ballot. But Barack Obama used his influence in the Democratic Party to block Michigan from rerunning the primary. So that left the only democratic result being the one where he received zero votes.

Then he disregarded the will of the voters and took a bunch of Michigan delegates for himself (including some that had been awarded to Hillary).

I can see why he didn't like receiving zero votes, but he was the one who took his name off our ballot, and he was the one who prevented us from rerunning our primary with his name on the ballot. If he had wanted our votes, he should have gotten those votes legitimately by standing for election in the primary. Instead he abolished our democracy and just fabricated the election results that he wanted to have.


hightor wrote:
I think the primary system should be reformed but the best way to do this would be by having concerned states act together. There's no way the DNC would threaten to disqualify the delegations of a half dozen or more states.

I would like to see a state law that no one can be on our general election ballot unless they first appear on our primary ballot.


hightor wrote:
I'm sorry that you still feel that your state was treated shabbily but, for some reason I don't think your political views would be any different if this "atrocity" hadn't happened.

I used to make an effort to identify pro-gun democrats and vote for them (even if the NRA endorsed the Republican candidate as being even better yet). Now I just automatically vote for all Republicans.

I voted for Jenifer Granholm for attorney general because she promised to be pro gun. I voted against her when she ran for governor because I didn't think she had been pro gun as attorney general. But then I voted for her reelection for a second term as governor, because I thought she was pro gun in her first term as governor.
Mame
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 12:20 pm
@oralloy,
Why are guns so important to you?
oralloy
 
  -2  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 12:28 pm
@Mame,
Technically all of my civil liberties are important to me. The Second Amendment just happens to be the one that people are trying to violate.

I also value weapons as tools to protect me from those who would harm me. I value such weapons on many different levels, from privately-owned weapons for personal self defense, to having the police well armed so they can protect me, to having the US military well armed with conventional weapons so they can protect me, to having the US military well armed with nuclear weapons so they can protect me.
hightor
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 12:36 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Michigan got the rules changed so that New Hampshire was no longer first.

I don't think so. They didn't get the rules changed, they just went ahead and rescheduled their primary. Had they been acting in accordance with the rules the delegation would not have been disciplined.

wikipedia wrote:
Federal Democratic Party rules prohibit any state, except for Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina from holding its primary before February 5, or Super Tuesday. On December 1, 2007, the Democratic National Committee stripped Michigan and Florida of all of their delegates to the Democratic National Convention.


Mame
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 01:03 pm
@oralloy,
Why would you think anyone would want to harm you? And who would that be? I can understand having a gun if you need to protect yourself or your livestock from an animal predator, but people?

I think the intent of the 2nd Amendment was that the militia could bear arms, was it not? So if you're part of a protective force, that was fine, but I don't think they intended it to allow any random person to have a stockade on their property.
vikorr
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 03:08 pm
@izzythepush,
I think that Oralloy and Max think and behave in two very different ways. To be clear, I'm not saying there are not similarities (I haven't really thought about it - their differences always seemed clear as day to me)
izzythepush
 
  3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 03:26 pm
@vikorr,
Oralloy is a parody, a one dimensional caricature with a limited amount of phrases.

Anybody could do him.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 04:06 pm
@izzythepush,
You're lying about the limited phrases. You always lie about everyone.

That said, all I do is tell the truth all the time. Anyone who can tell the truth can imitate me by merely doing so.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 04:07 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I don't think so. They didn't get the rules changed,

That is incorrect. Michigan got the rules changed to mix up the schedule so Iowa and New Hampshire were not always 1 and 2. The schedule in 2008 was supposed to be:

#1 Iowa

#2 Nevada

#3 New Hampshire

#4 South Carolina

#5 Everyone else

https://web.archive.org/web/20060822232125/democrats.org/a/2006/08/highlights_of_t.php


hightor wrote:
they just went ahead and rescheduled their primary. Had they been acting in accordance with the rules the delegation would not have been disciplined.

Michigan only broke the rules after New Hampshire broke the rules and the national party allowed New Hampshire to do so without penalty.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Mon 13 Dec, 2021 04:10 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:
Why would you think anyone would want to harm you?

Because I am aware of the world.


Mame wrote:
And who would that be?

Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, Ayman al-Zawahiri, any common criminal who wants to take my stuff, deranged progressives who don't like me posting the truth on a2k. Who knows.


Mame wrote:
I can understand having a gun if you need to protect yourself or your livestock from an animal predator, but people?

Yes. People.


Mame wrote:
I think the intent of the 2nd Amendment was that the militia could bear arms, was it not?

People are also allowed to use their guns for private self defense.


Mame wrote:
So if you're part of a protective force, that was fine,

Everyone in America is a potential member of that protective force.


Mame wrote:
but I don't think they intended it to allow any random person to have a stockade on their property.

That is incorrect. There was never any intent to prevent people from building fortifications.
0 Replies
 
 

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