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Critical Race Theory: Voters versus Liberal Extremism

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2021 10:19 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Great post. Over the head of someone as self informed as you know who.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2021 10:22 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
- Do you agree with my point that the interpretation of history, and the narratives of history, are subjective and informed by the culture and ideology of the viewer?

- Do you agree that even within the same cultural context, different historians will disagree on the narrative or meaning of historical events?
The basis for a historian's work are sources; new knowledge comes from this occupation. And every historian has a different approach and perhaps comes to different conclusions. (I.e. discourse and discourse analysis is still a topic of discussions, and the Historikerstreit ("historians' dispute") (a dispute in the late 1980s in Germany between conservative and left-of-center academics and other intellectuals about how to incorporate Nazi Germany and the Holocaust into German historiography, and more generally into the German people's view of themselves) is still "on a low flame".
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2021 10:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I am trying to tease out the answers to my questions from your reaponse.

Do I understand correctly that you do agree with both of my statements?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Nov, 2021 10:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I was thinking about the Nazi example before you posted it because it is interesting. Actually, I think the slaveholder culture in American history may be a parallel, although there are important differences.

It is impossible for a historian to understand Germany in the 1930s or America in the 1830s without being able to view cultural norms from the perspective of Nazis or slave owners. A historian needs to be able to understand motivations and events detached from modern understanding.

Of course, viewing things from the perspective of an everyday German Nazi supporter in 1930 is not appropriate for a elementary school student. It is part of having a complete understanding of history

I read an elementary school teacher was fired for javing students consider the world from the perspective of a slave owning family. I see why she was fired... but on the other hand, that is part of the study of history.

These are not easy issues.
Real Music
 
  4  
Reply Sun 14 Nov, 2021 11:48 pm
Harriet Tubman


0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 12:22 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I was thinking about the Nazi example before you posted it because it is interesting. [...]
It is impossible for a historian to understand Germany in the 1930s or America in the 1830s without being able to view cultural norms from the perspective of Nazis or slave owners. A historian needs to be able to understand motivations and events detached from modern understanding. [...]These are not easy issues.
In just a few years, Adolf Hitler succeeded in rising from a would-be artist to the "leader" of a terror regime.
Of course, from today's perspective this seems difficult to understand.
But fortunately there are good sources.

Hitler, for example, could rely on the support of the "better circles" who donated money - and saw in him the Messiah.

And many leaders of the Catholic and Protestant churches were of the opinion that order and community, leadership and bonding should once again come to the fore - a "völkische Lebensordnung" should replace the vague internationalism, which did not commit to anything but let people and state fade into the background. What they then presented as the commonalities of Christianity and National Socialism.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 05:01 am
The 1619 Project and the Long Battle Over U.S. History
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 12:38 pm
@hightor,
Most Republicans oppose teaching kids about the lingering effects of racism
Quote:
One of the less-remarked-upon details about the elections in Virginia and New Jersey earlier this month was that, for all of the focus on Virginia in the weeks before Election Day, it was New Jersey that saw the bigger shift to the right since the 2020 presidential election (13 points vs. 12). In other words, for all of the emphasis on tumult in Virginia’s schools — and there was a lot — voters in New Jersey turned out and voted in much the same way.

In other words, it’s possible that the focus on how critical race theory, in particular, was allegedly integrated into Virginia schools’ curriculums was not the decisive factor in the outcome of the election, something that The Washington Post’s Scott Clement suggested was possible shortly afterward.

New polling from The Post and ABC News offers some additional insight into partisan views of education. For example, one of the factors that was identified as being a source of frustration for those evaluating how schools are run in each state was the response to the coronavirus pandemic. It’s certainly the case that there was a lot of expressed frustration about mask rules. But the Post-ABC poll finds that half of Republicans think the rules governing the pandemic in their local schools were either about right or not strict enough. There is, however, a 41-point gap between the parties when considering just those who think the policies were “too strict.”

... ... ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 12:44 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/ns6gxdQ.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 12:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
https://i.imgur.com/a9ulcvg.jpg
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 12:57 pm
The problem is that the political left sees their narrative as the unquestionable truth. In my opinion teaching a political narrative as fact is simply wrong.

There are two ways to teach Black Lives Matter.

- If a teacher presents Black Lives Matter as a political, unquestionable fact, then I have a problem. If a teacher allows students to question the assumptions of the Black Lives Matter movement, or better yet raises these issues herself, then I am OK.

- If students are penalized for questioning or rejecting Black Lives Matter, that is a big problem.

- In society there are multiple perspectives on transgender rights. When students are penalized for defending JK Rowling, or Dave Chappelle, or questioning pronouns... that is not good education.

The charge is that liberals want a political ideology to be taught as fact in history class. I think there is validity to that.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 01:00 pm
@maxdancona,
In University, the inability to suggest a biological link to gender is ridiculous. Professors who suggest that risk their careers.

In high school, there should be a little more sensitivity, but to present a one-sided political ideology is not good education on any front. Kids aren't stupid, they know that some of the political ideology on race and gender and sexuality is contradictory and contrary to their experience. It hurts the credibility of education.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  6  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 01:40 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
There are two ways to teach Black Lives Matter.

No, there are more than two ways to "teach" a controversial topic.

Quote:
The charge is that liberals want a political ideology to be taught as fact in history class. I think there is validity to that.

Why do you say that? You've indicated that discrimination against non-whites in the USA is a problem. It's not an expression of political ideology to take note of the long struggle for civil rights, to discuss the Tulsa race riot, or honor Martin Luther King. Do you know of some school district in particular that is committed to "indoctrinating" students as opposed to discussing a political issue from different perspectives? I haven't heard of any school where CRT is to be formally made part of the curriculum. Are you equally concerned about children being taught Christian doctrines, ID, or the sacred "lost cause" of the Confederacy?
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 01:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I don't think parents should have any say about the educational curriculum. If they have a complaint about a particular instructor they should be able to discuss it with school administrators but letting parents determine the subjects that get taught and giving them veto power over particular concepts is really contrary to the notion of universal education and smacks of anti-intellectualism.
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:04 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

I don't think parents should have any say about the educational curriculum. If they have a complaint about a particular instructor they should be able to discuss it with school administrators but letting parents determine the subjects that get taught and giving them veto power over particular concepts is really contrary to the notion of universal education and smacks of anti-intellectualism.


This only works if your political side is in control.

Let's say you live in Texas. The history curriculum there is based on the idea that American civilization was founded by Europeans and based on a Christian tradition (this narrative is just as true as any other, and if you want to argue the role of Christianity on American history I will be happy to engage).

So a Jewish family takes issue with this curriculum, but when they go to the school administrators they aren't taken seriously.

This seems like the same situation that conservative families are facing. It is my position that parents do have an interest and a say in how history is being presented.

Do you really believe that your position is correct?
Real Music
 
  5  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:09 pm
Obama honors Selma 50 years after "Bloody Sunday"

A half a century ago, African Americans demanding the right to vote began a march from Selma,
Alabama to the state capitol in Montgomery. But, they didn't get far before being met by violence.
Bill Plante reports from Selma to tell us more about the anniversary and his upcoming sit down
with the President.


Published: March 7, 2015


0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:26 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
So a Jewish family takes issue with this curriculum, but when they go to the school administrators they aren't taken seriously.

What is their issue? Do they want the school to claim that the USA was actually founded on Jewish principles? What harm is being done in being exposed to the Christianist position?

They have better options – the easiest one is to explain to their kid that he has to memorize this stuff if he wants to pass his history course because Texas is a very conservative, predominantly Christian state and encourage him to keep an open mind because he's basically being fed a conservative narrative which isn't universally accepted.

Quote:
Do you really believe that your position is correct?

It's only my opinion – I'm hardly in a position to deem it "correct".
Real Music
 
  4  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:39 pm
Voting Rights Act: Congress Rejected Major Changes To Section 5 In 2006 — But Not Without A Fight.


Published March 11, 2013
Updated June 25, 2013


Quote:
WASHINGTON — There aren’t too many Republicans loudly demanding that the Supreme Court uphold Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, the heart of the landmark law that has made it what is considered the most effective piece of civil rights legislation in U.S. history. Many Senate Republicans recently professed ignorance on the issue, while others have indicated that they’d be fine if the court rules it unconstitutional.

But in 2006, when Congress reauthorized the VRA (HR 9) for 25 years, Republican members not only voted for the bill and put out statements reaffirming their support — many of them also voted against amendments that would have fundamentally changed Section 5. The road wasn’t completely smooth, however, with some rank-and-file members putting up a fight.

If 2006 is any lesson, expect some hurdles to be put up if the Supreme Court rules Section 5 unconstitutional and sends it to Congress to fix, especially with a more divided Republican Party and lawmakers who now seem unwilling to stand behind their earlier support.

The Voting Rights Act was first passed in 1965, outlawing discriminatory electoral practices. Section 5 — a key provision in the act— requires certain states and localities that have a history of racial discrimination to receive approval from the Justice Department before changing election procedures. A locality can bail out of this requirement if it can prove there has been no voter discrimination for 10 years.



Congress reauthorized the VRA in (2006) with overwhelming bipartisan backing; the vote was 98-0 in the Senate and 390-33 in the House.



At the time, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) — who was then the majority leader — praised the VRA as “an effective tool in protecting a right that is fundamental to our democracy.”

But when asked about it recently on “Meet the Press,” he replied, “I think the Voting Rights Act has passed with large majorities in the House and Senate. I think it’s something that has served our country well. But there is argument over a very small section of the Voting Rights Act, and that’s what the court is going to consider.”

Boehner was referring to Section 5. Recently, the provision has stopped Texas from instituting one of the strictest voter ID laws in the nation and forced South Carolina to make changes to its proposed voter ID provision.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) is one of Congress’ most outspoken advocates of the Voting Rights Act. In 2006, Sensenbrenner marshaled his GOP colleagues into passing the reauthorization.

“Republicans have always had a track record of supporting civil rights legislation,” he said in an interview with The Huffington Post. “If you look back in the ‘50s and ‘60s, it was Republican support that overcame southern Democrat opposition.”

Sensenbrenner took issue with Boehner’s characterization of Section 5 being a “small section” of the civil rights law.

“It’s an important part of the Voting Rights Act. If it’s struck down and fixable, Congress has the obligation to fix it,” he said.

“For many of us who are familiar with the statute, we know that Section 5 is the main reason why the Voting Rights Act is the most effective civil rights statute we’ve ever passed in this country,” added Julie Fernandes, who helped lead the civil rights community’s push to reauthorize the VRA while at the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights in 2006. She is now a senior policy analyst at the Open Society Foundations.

Boehner’s office did not return a request for additional comment.

Section 5 is what is most at issue before the Supreme Court this term. Observers worry that justices may argue Section 5 is unconstitutional and send it back to Congress to make it easier for states to skirt the requirement or update the formula dictating which areas are subject to preclearance.

In 2006, some members of Congress — especially from those covered by Section 5 — put up a fight when given an opportunity to amend the act.

Democratic and Republican leaders in the House and Senate embraced reauthorization in 2006. But before the vote, then-Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) and his lieutenants were “surprised,” according to the Washington Post, when they received pushback from some within the GOP caucus who were upset over how quickly things had moved forward with the reauthorization. As a result, the House Rules Committee agreed to allow votes on two Section 5 amendments.

Rep. Lynn Westmoreland’s (R-Ga.) amendment would have made it easier for jurisdictions to bail out of Section 5’s requirements. Instead of the states and localities having to present evidence that they no longer needed federal oversight, Westmoreland wanted the onus to be on the Justice Department to go through the covered jurisdictions and figure out which ones no longer needed preclearance.

“Congress [should] require that the Justice Department determine which states or counties have long records of voter equality,” wrote Westmoreland in a 2006 Washington Post op-ed. “These jurisdictions would then be freed from Section 5 coverage (just as a handful of Virginia jurisdictions have been exempted from coverage that once included all of Virginia).”

A second amendment would have struck more directly at the heart of Section 5. The late Rep. Charles Norwood (R-Ga.) wanted to update the formula that determines which states and localities are covered under the law by basing it on the past three presidential elections: “Any state would be subject to Section 5 if it currently has a discriminatory test in place or voter turnout of less than 50% in any of the three most recent presidential elections,” the amendment read.

Westmoreland’s amendment captured a majority of the Republican caucus; Norwood’s did not. And with enough Democrats voting against them, they were defeated.

Boehner also voted against both amendments, as did conservatives like Reps. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and Darrell Issa (R-Calif.). In the end, the majority of GOP House members ended up voting to reauthorize the VRA, despite the fact that the two amendments failed.

In response to Westmoreland’s amendment, Fernandes argued that the staff in the Justice Department dedicated to enforcing Section 5 is relatively small, and shifting the burden to them to assess every jurisdiction and whether it should be covered would have taken it away from its core mission of making sure discrimination does not happen.

“We thought it was appropriate for the burden to be on the jurisdictions to at least make the initial showing, to say, ‘Hey, I want to bail out, and here is my clean record,’” she argued.

Fernandes argued that in Norwood’s case, the representative bought into the fallacy that Section 5 was trying to solve low voter registration and turnout among minority communities.

“The idea was to end the discrimination itself, not just the symptom of it, which was low registration and turnout,” she said.

Sensenbrenner also argued that just because presidential turnout is high doesn’t mean there isn’t discrimination. Also, he said, turnout tends to be greatest in presidential elections — a significant amount of discrimination can happen in less-visible contests, for school board, sheriff, council and other local positions.

And just because turnout was high in the past doesn’t mean there won’t be discrimination moving forward.

“If you use a high-voter-turnout election — of course presidential elections are always the highest turnout elections — to say that we should loosen our vigilance against discrimination, [that] would mean that in subsequent elections, it would be more difficult for minority voters to vote, and consequently [turnout] would be lower. But by that time, the milk is already spilled and the horse is out of the barn,” said Sesenbrenner.

Sensenbrenner said he never considered either of the two amendments a serious threat.

“I knew we would be able to beat them back,” he said, pointing to the fact that they also defeated Rep. Steve King’s (R-Iowa) amendment mandating that ballots be printed in English only.

If the Supreme Court rules Section 5 is unconstitutional and kicks it back to Congress to amend — an outcome Sensenbrenner says he hopes doesn’t happen — those lawmakers who have so far been uneasy in taking a position on the VRA will have to do so. The debate will occur in a polarized environment that includes varying opinions on long lines at the polls, voter ID laws and allegations of fraud.

Still, Sensenbrenner is confident that if the Supreme Court rules that the law needs to be changed, his colleagues will come around when they are presented with evidence showing why it is still so necessary.

“It was one of the trans-Atlantic passenger shipping lines that said, ‘Getting there is half the fun.’ That’s the experience I’ve had with the Voting Rights Act and all of its mutations since I’ve been in Congress,” Sensenbrenner said. “I think by the time the debate is concluded, there will be a very bipartisan consensus that if there is an amendment needed to Section 5 to keep it viable, the votes will be overwhelming.”


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voting-rights-act-congress_n_2829246
maxdancona
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:43 pm
@hightor,
I guess I disagree with your idea of "universal education" if that means that one-size fits all. I believe that educators should be sensitive to the specific issues of their communities. The best educational approach for students living near Navajo Nation in Arizona is not the same as for those living in Western Massachusetts.

I believe that individual teachers, as well as their school administrations should be sensitive to the needs of a Jewish family (or a conservative family, or a Catholic Hispanic family). If there is a larger Jewish community in that particular school district, this becomes even more important.

You talk about students being "fed a conservative narrative which isn't universally accepted". Hopefully you recognize that there is an equivalent liberal narrative which isn't universally accepted either.

maxdancona
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 15 Nov, 2021 02:44 pm
@Real Music,
I think Real Music might be lost. Could someone take him to a voting rights thread?
 

 
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