ABORTION.......

Once again:

djbt wrote:

(1) What qualities must a something possess to be called a 'human being'?
(2) Why do these qualities mean that a 'human being' has 'rights'?
(3) At what stage of pregnancy does a fetus develop these qualities?

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A fetus cannot live outside the womb. A human child can.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

A fetus cannot live outside the womb. A human child can.

A baby can be born as a baby at 20 or 21 weeks. At that point, it is no longer a fetus. Does it not follow that aborting a 21 - 28 week fetus is murder of a child?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

A fetus cannot live outside the womb. A human child can.

So is it your argument that possession of the quality [ability-to-live-outside-the-womb] gives a being rights? Why is that quality relevant? Why do you choose this quality, rather than [ability-to-sing-a-top-C], or [ability-to-live-in-acid], or any other quality? And why should I agree that being able to live outside the womb gives a thing 'rights'? A stinging nettle can live outside the womb, does it have 'rights'?

What is so special about the quality [ability-to-live-outside-the-womb] that it makes the difference between it being morally wrong to kill something, and it being just something not to be done frivolously?

I suspect that [ability-to-live-outside-the-womb] is not the main difference between a fetus and a child in your mind, I suspect there are other factors involved, so my questions (note there was more than one) stand.

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I am not in favor of late term abortions, except where the mother's life or health is at risk. A CVS test for abnormalities can be performed at 10-12 weeks; an amniocentesis at 15-18 weeks.

Therefore, any decision to abort can be made before 20 weeks.

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You are sidestepping the question. The question regarded the fact that there are late term abortions notwithstanding your opinion on them. Is that killing a fetus or a child?

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If it has not been born, it is not a child.

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So if a fetus is born at 21 weeks it is a child. Thus proving that it is a child outside of the woman's body. However, you contend that a further develope child of say 27 weeks that is still in the woman's body is not a child? I am lost in this logic.

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Only some fetuses can live outside of the woman's body at 21 weeks. Some need many more weeks of development for viability. Therefore, a fetus can only be considered a child after it has been born, and is able to live outside of the mother's womb.

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Phoenix32890; still waiting for a response explaining why you argue that [ability-to-live-outside-the-womb] is a non-arbitary quality, which can be used to descide which beings have rights and which do not.

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Intrepid wrote:

Phoenix32890 wrote:
A fetus cannot live outside the womb. A human child can.

A baby can be born as a baby at 20 or 21 weeks. At that point, it is no longer a fetus. Does it not follow that aborting a 21 - 28 week fetus is murder of a child?

No. Even if your supposition is correct...abortion is not murder.

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Frank, will you answer my questions?

What qualities do you think a being must possess in order to be said to have a 'right' to life? Why are these qualities important? When, in the transition between fertilized egg and baby, does the evidence you have seen suggest these qualities emerge?

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You know, I find all of this so sad. I just came from a week of vacation spent with other people trying to find things to do to support our troops.

Our troops are fighting for our very rights. I think they would be saddened if they knew that so many were using those rights so disrespectfully.

We all have the right to our own beliefs and opinions. It is virtually impossible for the dissention on the abortion issue to be lessened.

Christians call abortion murder. Frank says it's not murder because it is not illegal. So, let's not call it murder. Let's call it slaying of the innocent because that is what it is. Putting one's selfish wants and desires before the life of another is just wrong.

It doesn't matter if the fetus, child, or whatever anyone choses to call it is a minute old, a day old, full term, etc. It is a miracle of life and no one has the right to take that away.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Only some fetuses can live outside of the woman's body at 21 weeks. Some need many more weeks of development for viability. Therefore, a fetus can only be considered a child after it has been born, and is able to live outside of the mother's womb.

Who decides which will live and which will die?

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Phoenix,

Since you don't believe it is a child until it is outside of the womb, let me ask you a question I asked Frank.

So, let's say you are married and two seconds before giving birth your wife decides she wants to abort the child. What would you do?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Christians call abortion murder. Frank says it's not murder because it is not illegal. So, let's not call it murder. Let's call it slaying of the innocent because that is what it is. Putting one's selfish wants and desires before the life of another is just wrong.

It doesn't matter if the fetus, child, or whatever anyone choses to call it is a minute old, a day old, full term, etc. It is a miracle of life and no one has the right to take that away.

It's not the slaying of anything if there's nothing alive to slay. The point of contention still seems to be how something can be defined as 'alive', and what qualities something must possess in order to be considered a 'human' with 'rights'. No-one, as yet, has responded to the articles Terry posted.

Personally, I can see little merit in Phoenix32890's suggestion that ability to live outside the womb is the quality that affords a living thing 'rights'. I also reject the idea that a fertilized egg in immediately alive and has 'rights' - unique-ness doesn't seem to be to the relevant quality either. For me, the relevant quality is the ability to experience, at any level. I do not know when this might begin, though I'd give the benefit of the doubt to it being before week 20 of a pregnancy.

Thoughts?

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My thoughts are that the second there is conception, there is life. As to the quality who can say. But, it is God given life nonetheless and no one has the right to deny it's right to life.

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djbt wrote:

Frank, will you answer my questions?

What qualities do you think a being must possess in order to be said to have a 'right' to life? Why are these qualities important? When, in the transition between fertilized egg and baby, does the evidence you have seen suggest these qualities emerge?

I don't know how to say this more clearly than I have on probably a half-dozen different occasions in this thread...

...but until the zygote, embreo, or fetus (as the case may be) is fully and completely born into this world (totally exits its host's body)...

...I see no reason to assume that it has rights that cause its host to lose any of her rights.

Period.

It is not a "person"...or a "living being" in my opinion...until it is fully and completely born into this world....fully exited from its host's body.

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Momma Angel wrote:

You know, I find all of this so sad. I just came from a week of vacation spent with other people trying to find things to do to support our troops.

Our troops are fighting for our very rights. I think they would be saddened if they knew that so many were using those rights so disrespectfully.

We all have the right to our own beliefs and opinions. It is virtually impossible for the dissention on the abortion issue to be lessened.

Christians call abortion murder. Frank says it's not murder because it is not illegal. So, let's not call it murder. Let's call it slaying of the innocent because that is what it is.

Actually...it is not that either...unless one subscribes to your opinion of when it actually is a person.

I think you are wrong on the question of when a fertilized egg becomes a person.

Quote:

Putting one's selfish wants and desires before the life of another is just wrong.

Deciding that a woman has a right to decide what she wants for her body...is not putting one's selfish wants and desires before the life of another.

Quote:

It doesn't matter if the fetus, child, or whatever anyone choses to call it is a minute old, a day old, full term, etc. It is a miracle of life and no one has the right to take that away.

Yeah...you want to inject your "miracle" nonsense.

So....as you've been told before....don't have an abortion if you don't think it is right...and I don't much give a rat's ass whether you think it is wrong for me to champion a woman's right to chose otherwise.

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Well, I can see you haven't softened in any sense of the word.

The saddest thing of all is someone that calls a miracle nonsense.

And, if it makes it easier for you and others to not consider it a child so you can justify your "championing a woman's rights", have at it. It doesn't change a thing. Wrong is wrong and right is right.

Killing is wrong.

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ABORTION.......

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