ABORTION.......

Good!

More clarification is needed on a few points and then I should be able to provide your answer:

You have not answered my question as to intent. You have only told me that "father thought it might be less than killing a person" You have not told me why he did this. It is very important to know the reason. Intent cannot be premeditated or not premeditated. Intent is the reason. Was it simply and only that he didn't want to have a child? If so I would need to know why he simply do not leave her or some such.

You say that "chances of survival if removed...undetermined uncertain". But at 4 1/2 months the statistics are well established as to survival likelihood. I would need you to provide those statistics. For the sake of argument you can have imaginary statistics if you prefer.

When you say "Will the woman's choice be protected?" I do not know what you mean, since the fetus is already dead, so in this case there can be no protection of her choice.

If you are asking me how this woman could be protected prior to being kicked, I would answer that most likely she cannot be, as the vast of majority of these types of circumstances would not be preventable by either police enforcement and/or the legal system despite things such as restraining orders etc.

Remember you cannot charge the boyfriend for something he has not yet done.

the Intent of father was to abort. He did not want to be economically responsible for said child....he was not planning on staying with the girl.

Are you saying the law is not drafted to protect the rights of the people?

Do you mean to say that the police enforcement and legal system and laws have no effect....zero effect on establishing some order?

What charge should follow since the father has clearly infringed upon the mother's rights to her choice?

All you are really sure of is that you think you are a lot smarter than the Founders of the US.

They produced the government that has been the envy of the world for two centuries and aided the development of freedom in a way unimagined for millenia. This has is turn caused reform in countless other ways in other countries and people strive after what we take for granted here.

Given that you say

Bartikus wrote:

the Intent of father was to abort. He did not want to be economically responsible for said child....he was not planning on staying with the girl.

I would have to say that the father was a sociopath. There is no known cure for sociopathy and some believe it's bet to incarcerate and some believe in long term therapy and some believe in a hybrid approach. If was judging the case I would ask a shrink to interview the father very closely and review his history very closely prior to deciding the best course of action in terms of potential so-called rehabilitation.

Bartikus wrote:

Are you saying the law is not drafted to protect the rights of the people?

What I am saying is that in this case, the intent and spirit of some as of yet discussed hypothetical law will not likely have an effect on crimes of this nature. Why? Because a person willing and able to commit a crime of this nature is not likely to consider the implications of the legal system as a deterrent, irrespective of some as of yet discussed hypothetical law.

Bartikus wrote:

Do you mean to say that the police enforcement and legal system and laws have no effect....zero effect on establishing some order?

If you wish to delve into the implications of how a person or society maintains law and order that is a big area, but in a nutshell: the beneficial implications of both police enforcement and the legal system are marginal at best compared to the innate and nurtured drive in most of us to behave in a way that minimizes harm to others.

Further and a bit off topic, there is no evidence to support the contention that religion produces a more just person or a more just society than a lack of religion. In fact given the massive violence done in the name of religion over thousands of years there is much argument to the contrary.

Bartikus wrote:

What charge should follow since the father has clearly infringed upon the mother's rights to her choice?

See above as to my reference to sociopathy and the shrink's assessment. If you feel able to now take on the role of shrink and tell me all about this man's life and his mental status please do so. In fact indirectly, I have been asking you to do this from the very start, and each time I have, you have provided almost nothing of real substance as to his nature. Now you must if you wish to know how I might deal with this man!

Also I have yet to receive your fetus survival statistics, these are necessary as well as your shrink's report.

Abortion is not the only CHOICE or RIGHT of a woman that should be protected under the law........should it? yes or no

The law says that murder carries a hefty consequence 25 years, life, sometimes people are executed.

The fact that the law cannot fully protect or insure that murder is never carried out is no reason to not charge someone for doing so right?

Abortion is not the only CHOICE or RIGHT of a woman that should be protected under the law........should it? yes or no

The law says that murder carries a hefty consequence 25 years, life, sometimes people are executed.

The fact that the law cannot fully protect or insure that murder is never carried out is no reason to not charge someone for doing so right?

You said chumly:

"A person willing to commit a CRIME of this NATURE is not likely to consider the implications of the legal system irrespective of the law".

What crime and of what nature are you speaking about? Chumly........

Bartikus wrote:

You said chumly:

"A person willing to commit a CRIME of this NATURE is not likely to consider the implications of the legal system irrespective of the law".

What crime and of what nature are you speaking about? Chumly........

The crime we have been talking about of which as of yet you have not provided me with sufficient information to know it's true nature. I am waiting shrink and statistic man!

You have already decided it's a crime and of a certain nature.

The man believed it was not a human life. Dr shrink agrees and finds the man to not be anymore of a sociopath than a mother who would do the same for the same reasoning.

Bartikus wrote:

You have already decided it's a crime and of a certain nature.

No it would in fact be more precise to say that I have assessed that there is a crime of some nature not that I "have already decided it's a crime and of a certain nature".

Bartikus wrote:

The man believed it was not a human life. Dr shrink agrees and finds the man to not be anymore of a sociopath than a mother who would do the same for the same reasoning.

I would get another shrink because you did not do a good job at all! Why? Because you are telling me that the man kicked the woman and put her in grave physical danger and yet you have not even asked the man about his views on hurting the woman!

Again you will need to provide much more info on the mental makeup of this man, as even if he believed the fetus was not a humans life, he must have a view on the harm he has caused the woman by kicking her. While we are at it, how is she doing? Did she die? Can she ever have babies again? Is she so mentally distraught that her life is ruined? Can she return to work? Can she perform at her old job? Is she crippled?

And again I need your survival stats on the fetus

Why not work a bit a harder and provide the complete picture instead of repeating shopworn questions I cannot answer without more information? It gets a bit tiresome and you could have saved yourself a lot of time by providing the proper information right away!

A barbaric murder of an innocent child has occured and a woman's right to have a child has been taken from her. Chumly.

Will you have the same courage to defend her as you would to defend her 'right' to abort?

How can you when your contradiction is made plain?

Do you know why a person cannot defend both equally?

Life and death are in opposition.

Which would you choose?

I am not here to try to change the written laws of our system as much as I am here to maybe create some positive change in the hearts of people.

Please understand this.

I have but a short time. As we all do really. Choose life...choose love and not just for yourself.

As horrible of an issue this is. I think we must try to face it.

We all know what you are hard at work....doing.

You seem to want to play the role as judge.

However what I asked of you did not involve the judge.

I was asking a question that went to the prosecution.

I'm not asking you to play the roles of prosecutor, judge, and jury!

Defend the life of the child and the assault on the mother. Can you do that with the same ferocity as the right to abort?